[Joe Bloggs]

+1 on that last sentance. IMO they are lead astray by not understanding the true technical details and being subjected to the chanting of a mob. What are they to believe?
Here is an example, at least it wasn't a mega dollar product: http://www.head-fi.org/t/711824/hifiman-he-560-impressions-discussion-thread/13335#post_11650680

I don't see anyone special in that post by Hifi59?

 

[StanD]

I don't see anyone special in that post by Hifi59?

Not anyone special, but it is an ongoing theme of what I consider disinformation, unsubstaniated claims. Should one contest that in a reply, there's a good chance that one would get ganged up on.
Do you think the content of that post was helping anyone?

 

[Joe Bloggs]

I don't see anyone special in that post by Hifi59?

Not anyone special, but it is an ongoing theme of what I consider disinformation, unsubstaniated claims. Should one contest that in a reply, there's a good chance that one would get ganged up on.
Do you think the content of that post was helping anyone?

You know that you're in the wrong part of the neighborhood to be making blanket statements against cable tweaks. If you do it anyway, your behaviour may be seen as in some ways similar to the guy who walks into the Sound Science forum claiming the efficacy of his cable magnetic conditioner thingambob or what-have-you. One difference would be that you think you're right and he's wrong... that's similar to the stuff of religious wars, though :rolleyes:

See, that's another operational difficulty that I imagine the management has between the science contingent and everyone else: even if, e.g. somebody walks into the FiiO X5 thread and says he thinks his iBasso DX90 sounds better, there's little chance of a nasty conflict unless he phrased it like "anyone who isn't deaf should prefer the DX90", which people seldom do--they usually just see it and post it as their personal preference. But for science folks,

1. It's you against virtually every manufacturer out there
2. And all their customers are wrong. Not just preferring something different, but wrong
(note: the above is an exaggerated portrayal pointing out the philosophical differences between having a different brand preference and having a different scientific outlook and is not meant to be an accurate portrayal of your posting pattern or temperament.)

That's your basic (edit: philosophical) starting position. Practically speaking, with the audience makeup of head-fi, you simply can't let such a band of people roam free (edit: i.e. posting everywhere showing their opposing view in a manner that is sure to cause confrontation) without setting the whole place one fire...

And what would be the point of going into the thread, guns blazing, just to try to convince that one poor soul spending more on audio gear than his mortgage to save his pennies for lunch instead of cables? A pm conversation would probably be more effective. Would it be a taste for the dramatic at work here--just as may be the case for Sound Science forum "intruders"?

 

[MacacoDoSom]

 

  Can I ask what's your issue with latency to listening to music? (not recording or midi realtime playing/recording).

 
I don't have much of one listening to music.  For some irrational reason it really annoys me when the pause and stop buttons aren't absolutely instant, but I could probably get over that if I tried.
 
The real problem is with videos and games.  I spend more time using my headphone while watching videos or playing games than I do listening to just music.
 
I don't do any musical production.  I have no talent in that area at all.  The original purpose of my 2i2 was for measuring my headphone mods.

I have a similar interface (Roland UA-55) and have no issues with latency with WDM drivers and VAC, with ASIO drivers and with minimal VSTs I can go as low as 3.29ms (output latency) with a buffer size of 32 samples at 44.1kHz... I to have a Rockboxed Sansa Clip+, and don't want anything else...

 

[maverickronin]

  I have a similar interface (Roland UA-55) and have no issues with latency with WDM drivers and VAC, with ASIO drivers and with minimal VSTs I can go as low as 3.29ms (output latency) with a buffer size of 32 samples at 44.1kHz... I to have a Rockboxed Sansa Clip+, and don't want anything else...

 
I've never been able to get an acceptable latency out of VAC without it dropping out a lot.  I've got a 3.7Ghz i7 and 18GB or RAM so it shouldn't really be a hardware issue either.
 
Using the input on my 2i2 might work better if I get around to spending more time tweaking it.    Is was faster than VAC and didn't drop out at all either.

 

[cel4145]

Not anyone special, but it is an ongoing theme of what I consider disinformation, unsubstaniated claims. Should one contest that in a reply, there's a good chance that one would get ganged up on.
Do you think the content of that post was helping anyone?

You are right. And I wouldn't jump into that discussion and say anything unless I had either (a) recently been participating otherwise thread or (b) owned the HE-560s. Otherwise, it would seem too much like an outsider jumping in just to be argumentative.

However, if that thread were in the introduction and recommendations forum, and someone directly asked about better cables, I would not hesitate to say something since (a) I'm a very active poster there and (b) there are so many newbies who don't know about the audio science perspective. And in the newbie/help forum, there's also the possibility of influencing people's opinions because they are still forming them, still learning. In some of the hardware specific areas of the forum, people are already overly invested (via money and time) in that belief that they can trust what they hear through subjective listening evaluations. Perhaps some of you might help out in the intro and recommendations forum more?

I also share my other personal opinion about differences in sound between dacs/amps/cables. *If* those differences do exist, the differences are subtle enough that I think it makes no sense to trust someone else's opinion about headphone/hardware synergy. We already know that SQ preferences between different headphones, which have very significant audio differences, is very subjective, and then this idea that something subtle is a transferable experience? Seems more likely to still be transferable in an expectational bias sort of way even if difference does exist. In other words, the existence of audible difference does not rule out that the perceived difference is not biased.

So it seems to me that headphone synergy is just unreliable no matter what.

 

[StanD]

You know that you're in the wrong part of the neighborhood to be making blanket statements against cable tweaks. If you do it anyway, your behaviour may be seen as in some ways similar to the guy who walks into the Sound Science forum claiming the efficacy of his cable magnetic conditioner thingambob or what-have-you. One difference would be that you think you're right and he's wrong... that's similar to the stuff of religious wars, though

See, that's another operational difficulty that I imagine the management has between the science contingent and everyone else: even if, e.g. somebody walks into the FiiO X5 thread and says he thinks his iBasso DX90 sounds better, there's little chance of a nasty conflict unless he phrased it like "anyone who isn't deaf should prefer the DX90", which people seldom do--they usually just see it and post it as their personal preference. But for science folks,

1. It's you against virtually every manufacturer out there
2. And all their customers are wrong. Not just preferring something different, but wrong

That's your basic starting position. Practically speaking, with the audience makeup of head-fi, you simply can't let such a band of people roam free without setting the whole place one fire...

And what would be the point of going into the thread, guns blazing, just to try to convince that one poor soul spending more on audio gear than his mortgage to save his pennies for lunch instead of cables? A pm conversation would probably be more effective. Would it be a taste for the dramatic at work here--just as may be the case for Sound Science forum "intruders"?

First thing is I state my case politely and remain so. I'll even state that some people prefer such and such and others don't as a means of estabishing a peaceful position. I back it up with good information. Many people actually thank me. Some get bent out of shape.
I used to me more aggresive but have learned to approach this diplomatically. Same thing with Amps and DACs. I usually express this in threads regarding products that I own.

 

[MacacoDoSom]

 

  I have a similar interface (Roland UA-55) and have no issues with latency with WDM drivers and VAC, with ASIO drivers and with minimal VSTs I can go as low as 3.29ms (output latency) with a buffer size of 32 samples at 44.1kHz... I to have a Rockboxed Sansa Clip+, and don't want anything else...

 
I've never been able to get an acceptable latency out of VAC without it dropping out a lot.  I've got a 3.7Ghz i7 and 18GB or RAM so it shouldn't really be a hardware issue either.
 
Using the input on my 2i2 might work better if I get around to spending more time tweaking it.    Is was faster than VAC and didn't drop out at all either.

I was talking of a laptop with a i7-3610QM @2.3GHz with 8 GB RAM, hyper threading disabled.   I also have a desktop with the same processor as yours, where I use a Firewire interface (Presonus Firestudio Project) only with 16GB RAM and hyper threading on, and I cannot go as low latency as the laptop... now that I think about it, I'll have to check it with hyperthreading off...
 
interesting... I have disabled it in the laptop because of heating issues... and not noticing any improvements in performance with it on...

 

[maverickronin]

  I was talking of a laptop with a i7-3610QM @2.3GHz with 8 GB RAM, hyper threading disabled.   I also have a desktop with the same processor as yours, where I use a Firewire interface (Presonus Firestudio Project) only with 16GB RAM and hyper threading on, and I cannot go as low latency as the laptop... now that I think about it, I'll have to check it with hyperthreading off...
 
interesting... I have disabled it in the laptop because of heating issues... and not noticing any improvements in performance with it on...

 
Ha!  The hyper threading might be killing the latency?  That would be pretty interesting.
 
My HT needs to stay on for the AviSynth upsampling scripts I run on SD video though.  They can easily max out all 8 virtual CPUs.  I've been eying a new hex or octo core for a while so I can user higher quality filters too...

 

[MacacoDoSom]

 

  I was talking of a laptop with a i7-3610QM @2.3GHz with 8 GB RAM, hyper threading disabled.   I also have a desktop with the same processor as yours, where I use a Firewire interface (Presonus Firestudio Project) only with 16GB RAM and hyper threading on, and I cannot go as low latency as the laptop... now that I think about it, I'll have to check it with hyperthreading off...
 
interesting... I have disabled it in the laptop because of heating issues... and not noticing any improvements in performance with it on...

 
Ha!  The hyper threading might be killing the latency?  That would be pretty interesting.
 
My HT needs to stay on for the AviSynth upsampling scripts I run on SD video though.  They can easily max out all 8 virtual CPUs.  I've been eying a new hex or octo core for a while so I can user higher quality filters too...

I think that it would be strange to, but I'll have to check it with the desktop... it's not near me at the time, not for some days, I've heard about audio software having some problems with hyper but as I hadn't any, I haven't give it a second thought... I'm going to reboot the laptop and check it with hyper on...

 

[Steve Eddy]

Had a nice starting chat with Currawong tonight. As far as I can tell, he was as pro-science as any of you at one point but has had life experiences since then that has shifted his stance. It's not anti-science by any means, but he seems rather jaded by many cases in which science has seemingly failed. I'll have to talk to him some more for details on that.

Yes. Because I would argue that anyone who says science has failed doesn't quite understand what science is.

You can't petition for a policy requiring ABX tests to be made to back up all audio-related claims in Sound Science when the management does not believe in the absolute utility of double-blind testing. (He mentions examples of conflicting results for DBT testing of medical drugs)

I don't think it is apt to make comparison to drug testing.

In any case, as you point out, a null result doesn't prove anything one way or another. That's why it's called a null result instead of a negative result. But some people essentially portray it as such.

The bottom line is, no matter how you feel about blind testing, vanity and ego do not substantiate claims of audibility. there must be some adequate control for subjective biases. So you can't gat away with your claim of audibility by simply dismissing proper controls as some would like to do.

se

 

[MacacoDoSom]

 

 

  I was talking of a laptop with a i7-3610QM @2.3GHz with 8 GB RAM, hyper threading disabled.   I also have a desktop with the same processor as yours, where I use a Firewire interface (Presonus Firestudio Project) only with 16GB RAM and hyper threading on, and I cannot go as low latency as the laptop... now that I think about it, I'll have to check it with hyperthreading off...
 
interesting... I have disabled it in the laptop because of heating issues... and not noticing any improvements in performance with it on...

 
Ha!  The hyper threading might be killing the latency?  That would be pretty interesting.
 
My HT needs to stay on for the AviSynth upsampling scripts I run on SD video though.  They can easily max out all 8 virtual CPUs.  I've been eying a new hex or octo core for a while so I can user higher quality filters too...

I think that it would be strange to, but I'll have to check it with the desktop... it's not near me at the time, not for some days, I've heard about audio software having some problems with hyper but as I hadn't any, I haven't give it a second thought... I'm going to reboot the laptop and check it with hyper on...

 
Just checked it with foobar:
 
With ASIO drivers impossible to listen (with 32 samples buffer, lots of stuttering with hyper threading on, none with it off...)
 
With WDM drivers (with and without VAC) no difference.
 
Today I've learned something thanks to you... have to change it in my desktop, hope it will solve my MIDI recording issues with latency, not much but a bit troublesome, sometimes...

 

[Currawong]

Sorry, but Joe doesn't have permission to quote me, let alone try and post what he think I said out of context. What he posted about what I said is inaccurate and incomplete and I've edited the post to remove the contents.  Sorry Joe, but what you did was completely inappropriate. 

 

[dazzerfong]

   
Probably not so much these days...
 
These days you fire up Matlab or Octave (depending on your budget), put in the transfer function you want (amplitude and phase or poles and zeroes) and it grinds out the filter coefficients and simulates the filter you thought you want.
 
Then you run your experiments by feeding in .wav files and analyzing the resulting  output .wav files. 
 
When everything is as you wish, you either program your filter into a microprocessor or DSP or  program a  PGA or something like it. 
 
Your finished product will probably already have a microprocessor and or/a DSP  in it and...
 
You mean the prof didn't already tell you this?
 
He must be saving the punch line

Oh, I've already done that, and implemented it in both Labview and MATLAB, even placed it into a DAQ and FPGA for simulation and testing, but I've never actually seen how the coefficients get implemented into an actual (for example) RLC circuit.

 

[anetode]

  Sorry, but Joe doesn't have permission to quote me, let alone try and post what he think I said out of context. What he posted about what I said is inaccurate and incomplete and I've edited the post to remove the contents.  Sorry Joe, but what you did was completely inappropriate. 

Were you embarrassed by someone else's opinion of your views? Shame that you can't mod away people's thoughts 

 
Shame, a conversation about the difference in DBTs across various disciplines could prove to be enlightening.
 
As SE said, it is all politics and religion, certainly there have been accusations of religious zeal and censorship due to the politics of business.
 
On a completely different point: we should come up with a flowchart for answering FAQs. An index with relevant links hidden in spoiler tags or something.
 
Also it seems that the majority of SS discussions mainly concern the maths of e.e. and digital audio. Sometimes I think it would be apt to discuss basic psychology with an "interloper" rather than fuss over technicalities.