[Rob80b]

There are some real limitations in terms of measurements when it comes to FR curve in the upper mid and treble areas.

Of that there is no doubt but I believe the general consensus is that the NDH30 if used just for musical enjoyment is an easy headphone to get along with and never aggressive, or at least from what I've experienced so far.

800S has a treble suck out between 8-10khz from most measuring rigs and 800S is anything but dark.

The 800S also has more dimension and layering within the sound-field, the S2 and NDH30 are flatter in direct comparison.

I also note people have very different responses to 3-5khz as it all depends on their ear canal structure.

I do have fairly large ear canals so that direct sound could in theory be more diffused and not forced through a narrow tunnel on it ways to the receptors, this will in turn take the edge off bright sounding but make flat calibrated phones too flat or unexciting.
But as they are, with the swap in pads, the NDH30 is fine with me, not too sure why there is any argument one way or the other in regards to the HD660S2 which is different headphone.

Inserting the IE800, my ears, bottom
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-official-sennheiser-ie800s-thread.862635/page-12#post-13807385

 

[headstef]

Here is a more detailed graph by Oratory1990. Note that "...and multiple reseats" and the grey area representing all those reseats:

A year ago I measured all those "possible reseats" (to estimate the effect of the off-centered and inclined drivers) and found that when the ear is optimally centered for comfort into the earpads the resulting frequency response is considerably closer to the brighter (higher) limits than the lower ones. In other words, when the ear is centered, the headphone retains a balance closer to its max brightness:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/neumann-ndh-30.963439/page-16#post-17236966
(Please, read carefully the few lines above and under the first graph in the link above, to understand my point.) Or see below the same graph, noting that the freq. response of the NDH 30 (ear centered) is represented better by the second or third line from the top:

(As it is mentioned many times, after a few uses the listener puts the headphone on his/her head at the correct position automatically.)

Thus, I think it is safe to conclude that in Oratory's graph too, the perceived tonality by the average user is represented better by the higher half of the gray area - and that's why the treble of this headphone is beautifully/accurately balanced.

 

[Mike F]

A year ago I measured all those "possible reseats" (to estimate the effect of the off-centered and inclined drivers) and found that when the ear is optimally centered for comfort into the earpads the resulting frequency response is considerably closer to the brighter (higher) limits than the lower ones. In other words, when the ear is centered, the headphone retains a balance closer to its max brightness:

Rob, I’m fairly sure that your physiology is somehow responsible for your previous statement:-

‘but as Neumann purposely reduced the treble extension on the NDH30…….’

As headstef explained above, for most people the NDH 30 has the correct amount of upper frequency energy (treble) when the ear feels centered in the ear cups. I find that for me they can easily become too bright if I don’t have them placed a little further forwards than I might have done when I first got them. I was so used to the oval ear cups of the six series and where the front of the ear cup came on my head that I found myself putting the NDH a little too far back. That makes the too bright as the driver is too close to the ear. Maybe you have the opposite problem? I will note that I have never found the HD 800 comfortable because the front of the cup comes too far forwards for me – I don’t like the feeling that it’s coming too far over my temples. You seem to be very comfortable with the 800 series, so maybe that means that you put the NDH 30 further forwards than other people, making them darker? It’s just a thought, because either there is something going on in that way, (physiology – head shape/ear cup placement, ear shape), or there is something up with your headphones for you to be able to think the above.

Edit: Perhaps it's a combination of sample variation (where your example has slightly less treble energy than some) and physiology (head shape/size, shape/size, and ear cup placement). Or, as we've said before, it's just a matter of comparison for you to other headphones of yours which are very bright. Nonetheless, I still don't understand your statement.....?

 

[Rob80b]

Other opinions voiced.

https://den-fi.com/neumann-ndh-30/
“Lastly, the treble. As a vocal advocate of darker frequency responses in headphones (in a hobby seemingly dominated by treble-forward "detail cannons"), this is simply too dark.”

I wouldn’t call the NDH30 dark though, polite yes, but in a balanced way that will sound fine to many listeners.
Currently the Neumann and I are getting along.

 

[Rob80b]

Morning listen.
https://tidal.com/album/224017781

One of the main members, 82 year old flutist Raja Ram.

 

[Buckie]

Page 281. Need to mark this occasion.

 

[Mike F]

I appreciate your response, Rob. It will be interesting too see how your journey with the NDH 30 progresses. I imagine that they will continue to grow on you.

In regard to the quote from the review you linked, here are a few other parts from that review:-


No matter what instrument, NDH-30 sounds like a JPEG that's been copied, reprocessed, and pasted about 40 times too many. Nuance and textural resolve are all either blurred, aliased, or straight up gone. The sense of contrast between distinct parts of the music is flattened into a soulless, darkened monochrome that makes it really hard to emotionally or intellectually engage with the music.

To that end, the treble rolloff here definitely contributes to NDH-30 being one of the most detail-less, micro-deficient presentations I've ever heard. There is no conversation to be had about microdynamic swing, small gradations of volume between little low-in-the-mix elements, or "detail." NDH-30 has as close to none as I've ever heard, trading blows with the Koss PortaPro in that regard.

The problem though, is the imaging. NDH-30 really struggles when it comes to separating images or giving things their own space in the mix, allowing them not to be tread on by elements in close proximity. The presentation here is smeared, blurry, and a little stretched, but overall not my biggest problem with NDH-30 by a long shot.

After all this time testing, frankly I'm just not sure who NDH-30 is supposed to be for. It's an open back headphone, which to me says "audiophile" more than "pro audio/engineer." But it doesn't do anything for either use case that would justify paying $650 for NDH-30 when you can pay 30% of that for an HD650.

I really wanted to like NDH-30. As a huge fan of HD650—save for one treble peak at 10kHz—a warmer/darker HD650-type headphone seemed like it would be absolutely perfect for me.

But it's just too warm, too dark, too bleh. The build is worse than HD650 while being more than twice the cost, and the sound is even more upsetting.

It seems NDH-30 has the unfortunate fate of being, well... like most dynamic headphones: Overpriced for the sound quality you get, and destined to live in the shadow of the tone, timbre, and value king that is HD600/650.


You only have to read this much to realise that 1./ his opinions and perceptions are so far out of whack with the majority here that he clearly had a bad example, or his expectations and biases were so off and strong that the 'review' is rendered almost worthless as anything except one persons very unusual opinion, 2./ he seems to be unaware that professional sound engineers routinely use quality open back headphones, often costing more that the NDH 30, again calling into question the validity of his review, and (probably in this case most relevantly) 3./ he is a die hard HD 650 fan. I used to resemble that description! Fortunately I, as most of us, have got past that.....

 

[Rob80b]

Page 281. Need to mark this occasion.

…..cause you never know eh!

 

[ThEvil0nE]

My morning started with a good brush stroke

It Could Happen To You

 

[FritzS]

I appreciate your response, Rob. It will be interesting too see how your journey with the NDH 30 progresses. I imagine that they will continue to grow on you.

In regard to the quote from the review you linked, here are a few other parts from that review:-


No matter what instrument, NDH-30 sounds like a JPEG that's been copied, reprocessed, and pasted about 40 times too many. Nuance and textural resolve are all either blurred, aliased, or straight up gone. The sense of contrast between distinct parts of the music is flattened into a soulless, darkened monochrome that makes it really hard to emotionally or intellectually engage with the music.

To that end, the treble rolloff here definitely contributes to NDH-30 being one of the most detail-less, micro-deficient presentations I've ever heard. There is no conversation to be had about microdynamic swing, small gradations of volume between little low-in-the-mix elements, or "detail." NDH-30 has as close to none as I've ever heard, trading blows with the Koss PortaPro in that regard.

The problem though, is the imaging. NDH-30 really struggles when it comes to separating images or giving things their own space in the mix, allowing them not to be tread on by elements in close proximity. The presentation here is smeared, blurry, and a little stretched, but overall not my biggest problem with NDH-30 by a long shot.

After all this time testing, frankly I'm just not sure who NDH-30 is supposed to be for. It's an open back headphone, which to me says "audiophile" more than "pro audio/engineer." But it doesn't do anything for either use case that would justify paying $650 for NDH-30 when you can pay 30% of that for an HD650.

I really wanted to like NDH-30. As a huge fan of HD650—save for one treble peak at 10kHz—a warmer/darker HD650-type headphone seemed like it would be absolutely perfect for me.

But it's just too warm, too dark, too bleh. The build is worse than HD650 while being more than twice the cost, and the sound is even more upsetting.

It seems NDH-30 has the unfortunate fate of being, well... like most dynamic headphones: Overpriced for the sound quality you get, and destined to live in the shadow of the tone, timbre, and value king that is HD600/650.


You only have to read this much to realise that 1./ his opinions and perceptions are so far out of whack with the majority here that he clearly had a bad example, or his expectations and biases were so off and strong that the 'review' is rendered almost worthless as anything except one persons very unusual opinion, 2./ he seems to be unaware that professional sound engineers routinely use quality open back headphones, often costing more that the NDH 30, again calling into question the validity of his review, and (probably in this case most relevantly) 3./ he is a die hard HD 650 fan. I used to resemble that description! Fortunately I, as most of us, have got past that.....

Seen in this light, the DT1990 Pro (with analytic pads) should be the exact opposite! Or?
PS: I love the sound of brighter headphones, like DT1990, K812 and now Composer (of course it's in a different [price] class). Years ago I owned an HD600, which was too soft, too colourless for me and was replaced by the K701.

 

[Buckie]

Composer

I'd really love a comprehensive comparison here.

 

[Mike F]

Seen in this light, the DT1990 Pro (with analytic pads) should be the exact opposite! Or?

I think you will find this very helpful......

 

[ThEvil0nE]

Morning listen.
https://tidal.com/album/224017781

One of the main members, 82 year old flutist Raja Ram.

Matthew Halsall - An Ever Changing View
Water Street is a good listen

 

[deafLovesMusic]

Early evening listen:

For me, the Neumann NDH 30 reproduces music as I expect it to sound. I am fully aware that these are professional and not "easy listening" cans but I often think "They sound too smooth, great and wonderful for critical listeing headphones.". Nevertheless, I enjoy listeining to music and podcast with them very much.

Or to say it with the words of a sound engineer after testing the Neumann NDH 30: “Oh that’s what headphones are supposed to sound like.” (source: Studio Report: Neumann NDH30 Headphones ).

 

[headstef]

Other opinions voiced.

https://den-fi.com/neumann-ndh-30/
“Lastly, the treble. As a vocal advocate of darker frequency responses in headphones (in a hobby seemingly dominated by treble-forward "detail cannons"), this is simply too dark.”

This is a really weird "review". We have discussed about it in the past. Actually, if we must be just, it is the single most outrageous, inaccurate and misleading "review" written for the NDH 30 (maybe for any headphone). It is not worth mentioning it as an "opinion", it is not that. But since that joke-review is still online after so much time, it is obvious that it was not "a bad sample" in the hands of a well-intended reviewer. He would have discovered that by now. My personal view is that it was never meant to be an informative review but just a sales saver for other high end headphones. It's a pity...
It is funny that even in a Greek audio forum (where I don't participate) a demanding user was told to try the NDH 30 but he replied with fear, giving a link to that review! What a shame! It seems that this kind of "reviewing" does what it promises...