Need recommendations for most neutral/accurate yet musical and enjoyable IEM in sub $1,000 range (going over is okay if it's really worth it)
Nov 1, 2015 at 1:25 AM Post #16 of 87
 
 
K10U - After extensive listening, comparing, and testing, I have to say, I'm disappointed.

 
it's because you didn't get on the hype train , which is good for you
 
try this one , rhapsodio solar 

i believe that noble is the most hyped company in here (and i won't say anything else because you must not say things about the king's nakedness) 

solar is supposed to be one great iem , 10-BA so try and check it out - plus it is cheaper than K10 and way,way less hyped
 
cheers
 
Nov 2, 2015 at 3:24 AM Post #17 of 87
  Yes, IEMs can be very frustrating, because of fitting problems. That's why companies provide so many different tips, hoping that one of them will fit the person (and even that's not a guarantee). 
 
I suspect that some companies might even take into consideration the average amount of wax the typical person might have in their ears, and then tune their headphones according to that. :D My ears are kept exceptionally clean at all times, which might be way I have such a hard time with that 7KHz peak resonance, since my ear canals always have plenty of space for that resonance. 
 
I looked at the hybrids, and I think most of them have issues with isolation, and that's not ideal, since when I'm out, I do want to completely block out all outside noises that would interfere with my music. 
 
The IE800 looks pretty good. That peak at 5KHz would likely be a bit annoying and I'd have to EQ it. I might consider it if none of the ones on my list work out. 
 
If those sibilance test tracks sounded fine on your headphones, then that's actually a good thing. A perfectly neutral/accurate headphone will show that there's a very slight hint of sibilance, but not so much that it actually hurts your years. The sibilance would be more like the kind of very thin whistling sound you hear when you slide your palms together very quickly. On headphones that have peaks in the presence region, the sibilance in those test tracks would be more like a piercing sharp needle that actually hurts your eardrums. 
 
I've read a lot of IjokerI's reviews, so I'm familiar with his recommendations. But I'm a bit wary because he champions the K10 big time, and I partly got it because of his high praise for it. 
 
I'm not familiar with Marshal Banana. Is he writing for an audio site, or just a head-fi member? What is it about his experience/expertise that I should feel compelled to contact him?
 
I'll definitely be updating this thread with my thoughts on Angie. 

 
It's interesting how manufacturers would include tips of different sizes but not of different rigidity. I personally like softer single flange tips and favour Ortofon tips on my K3003.
 
About isolation, that is an unfortunate downside to hybrids, especially ones with vents on their outer faceplates. Using double/triple flange tips should improve this, but sealed BA IEMs will always have the advantage.
 
I just found it curious that your tracks sounded fine to me out of my K3003 which has a peak at 7kHz to my ears. Perhaps the piercing type of sibilance would be emphasized by peaks in the 8~10kHz region. 6~7kHz is more vocal "s"es which are more bearable. I think this track has similar percussion nasties as your first track and this too sounds fine out of the K3003:

 
I recall joker also liked the EarSonics SM3 which I owned for a time many years ago. I couldn't disagree more about the quality of those IEMs. So I do get the feeling that his judgment is not entirely consistent as well.
 
Yes, to clarify, Marshal Banana is just a HFer. I mention him with regards to hybrids since he resides in Japan and as a few models I listed are only readily available there, is probably the one HFer who has heard and compared them. I've PMed him a couple of times and I get the sense his comments are measured, unlike the majority of posts on HF. Should you want to find out more, in particular about the Oriolus and UM hybrids, though I'd assume he has heard the Sonys as well, he'd be a good person to ask.
 
Nov 8, 2015 at 6:44 PM Post #18 of 87
I have the Angie now and I ran into problems with impedance mismatch. On my desktop and laptop computers, as well as my audio interfaces, Angie is recessed around the 4KHz region. On my Galaxy Note 3 and iPad Air, it sounds much more neutral (although with a little bit of excessive sharpness in the 7KHz region, which as I have mentioned previously, is probably due to the shape of my ear canals causing peak resonance).
 
I do like how Angie sounds in general. With the bass control turned to 2 o'clock position, Angie's lower frequency sounds just about right to me (maybe slightly north of neutral, but suitable for headphone due to lack of visceral impact compared to speakers). The 7KHz peak is annoying but most IEM I've ever used have that issue, so I can't really say that it's a fault, since it might just be my physiology. I've ordered triple-flange tips in hopes that they'll address the problem, but I'm not confident, since I did try to fit my old triple-flange (thinner bore) onto Angie and it didn't help much (and I suspect the narrower bore is altering the sound too).
 
To address the impedance mismatch issue, I ordered a 70 ohm impedance adapter, as well as a couple of low impedance amps to test out (Massdrop's O2+ODAC, and Oppo HA-2). If the HA-2 performs just as well as the O2+ODAC, then there's point in keeping both, so I'll likely sell the O2+ODAC, since the HA-2 could be used as a portable as well as a desktop amp/DAC.
 
I'm hoping once the impedance mismatch issue is taken care of, Angie would sound just right (but that 7KHz peak might still be there).
 
I've got a Westone W60 coming too, and if I ultimately cannot get Angie to sound perfect and the W60 doesn't do the job either, then I might try the 1964 EARS U5 (that's the model they recommended to me).
 
Past that point, I'm unwilling to put in any more time and energy, since headphones is not a hobby for me like it is with some people. I don't have a collector's mentality and I buy gadgets to serve specific purposes. I'll end up choosing one of them to keep and sell/return the rest. 
 
Nov 8, 2015 at 7:30 PM Post #19 of 87
Subscribed. You are wanting what I am wanting too. A natural sound that has no over emphasized region. I will be curious where you end up.
 
Nov 16, 2015 at 9:41 PM Post #20 of 87
(EDIT: After more extensive testing under different circumstances (amount of sleep, amount of substance that might alter hearing such as caffeine, time of the day, wider range of music, more extensive EQ tweaking), I sadly have to recant my previous glowing praise of the W60. Below is now the edited version that reflects my current and more careful assessment of the W60.)
 
Westone W60 finally arrived, and during my early listening and testing sessions, due to various factors (amount of rest, amount of caffeine, time of day, music selection) I initially though it was pretty much EXACTLY what I've been searching for. But now after more extensive testing, it's clear that's not the case. 
 
The "Westone house sound" of too much upper-bass bloat is still there, and there's an annoying peak at around the 10 KHz region (centered at roughly 9500 Hz). There's also two dips in the mids and upper-mids--one at around 2400 Hz and one at around 4750 Hz. 
 
Those two dips aren't as problematic, but that pesky peak at around 10 KHz can be bothersome to people who are sensitive to that fatiguing tizzy treble on music that's mastered on the bright side. The bass bloat centered at around 150 Hz can muddy up songs what have lots of low frequency energy, but on songs that are relatively lean to begin with, will add more punch and warmth. I personally prefer neutral/accurate so I can hear exactly what the mastering engineer and music artist wanted me to hear, so I dislike any distinct coloration. 
 
This the EQ curve I came up with to get the W60 to sound as neutral as possible:

 
With that EQ curve, a log sweep test tone is about as smooth as I could possibly make it, and it's really damn smooth. Those of you who have the W60, try that EQ curve and you'll hear for yourself how smooth the log sweep sounds, and how neutral/accurate your music now sounds.
 
So what does this new assessment of the W60 mean for my mission to find the ideal IEM? I'm not sure at this point. If none of these expensive TOTL IEMs end up being ideal, I might end up giving up on them and go for the cheaper options, since they're likely to be about as close (or far) away from neutrality as these so-called flagship IEMs, and if I'm going to have to EQ them anyway, I might as well just do it on a cheaper IEM and save my money.
 
Currently, the Hifiman RE600S comes the closest to matching that profile, since it's at least not offensive when not EQ'd, but becomes ideal when it's EQ'd. I'll likely try the RE400 instead since it's supposed to sound extremely similar but much cheaper. 
 
I could also give the 1964 U5 a shot too. We'll see. I'm going to keep testing so I can be sure I've exhausted all scenarios to make sure I'm being as objective as possible and there are no variables left skewing my results.
 
...
 
I did also receive the Oppo HA-2, and while I think the product looks beautiful and I have no complaints about its features or performance (that very faint noise floor doesn't bother me at all--it's barely noticeable on low gain setting when using sensitive IEMs with impedance down to 16 Ohm), I'm not really sold on its necessity. Although I can't find any information on the exact impedance of my Galaxy Note 3, it's low enough that when I compare what I hear straight out of it versus what I hear from the HA-2, there really isn't any noticeable difference (when using very sensitive 16 Ohm IEMs like the Angie, with impedance down to much lower than 16 Ohm at around 4 KHz), which tells me Note 3's impedance is low enough to not be an issue for even the most sensitive IEMs. That means adding an external amp/DAC is total overkill because Samsung's already using very high quality DACs in their flagship products. 
 
However, if I want to use my IEMs on my computer, or with my speaker/headphone controller (such as the Samson C-Control or any other similar pro audio monitor/headphone controllers), then I do need a very low impedance amp, otherwise the frequency response of the sensitive IEMs will change. The W60 has an impedance of 25 Ohms, but that is not linear across the frequency range, so even if your device can handle exactly down to 25 Ohm, you will still get noticeable dip in the mid to upper-mid region, as well as a noticeable rise from 8 KHz and on, skewing that beautiful neutral sound. The HA-2 is down to less than 1 Ohm, so it handles the W60 just fine (as well as all the other IEMs I have, including the Angie). So I think for the sake of flexibility, if I ever want to use the W60 on any devices that isn't low enough in impedance, I should have at least one amp that's very low in impedance. 
 
I ordered a Massdrop O2+ODAC not long ago, because I needed at least one very low impedance reference quality amp (though I'm not as concerned about the DAC, since all the DACs I'm currently using on my sound cards, audio interfaces, and mobile devices are plenty good enough). The O2+ODAC won't arrive for a couple more weeks, and I ordered it before I ran into the impedance mismatch problem with the Angie, which is why I ordered the HA-2 to address the problem immediately, and also I thought having a small portable amp would be a good idea.
 
I'm now wondering if I should keep both the HA-2 and the O2+ODAC. I seriously doubt I'm going to hear any noticeable difference between the two. Both are about the same in impedance level (less than 1 Ohm), and both have high quality DACs. I think the O2+ODAC is amazing bang for the buck (especially the Massdrop version), but the HA-2 is more versatile due to its portable form factor, so that if I'm traveling and using a mobile device that doesn't have low enough impedance (such as a laptop/2-in-1 hybrid), I only need to bring the smaller HA-2 and can use its battery power, instead of the bigger O2+ODAC that needs to have the power plugged in. I'll have to decide soon since the HA-2 has a 30-day satisfaction guarantee. 
 
Nov 16, 2015 at 10:04 PM Post #21 of 87
Did anyone ever mention the UERM?
 
Nov 16, 2015 at 10:05 PM Post #22 of 87
Lunatique

Since you have the Angie, which I am considering, how does the Angie compare to the W60?
 
Nov 16, 2015 at 10:28 PM Post #23 of 87
  Did anyone ever mention the UERM?

Yes, but I was only considering universals for the sake of practicality. 
 
@Lunatique

Since you have the Angie, which I am considering, how does the Angie compare to the W60?

The Angie is very nice because the bass can be adjusted, and at 2 o' clock position is is perfect. The areas I have issues with are the upper-mids and treble. To illustrate, here's the EQ curve I created to make it sound more neutral:
 

 
Because the of the recess in the upper-mids, the 7 KHz area becomes exposed and has a shrill peak, and around the 10 KHz area there's a spike (a common issue for many headphones, used as a way to fake detail by headphone designers. This is true even for many expensive flagship headphones). The slight recess in the mids isn't much of an issue but I added a 3 dB compensation for it just to get the most neutral response. 
 
EDIT: If that EQ curve above sounds too bright, then use this one instead:

This one only pulls down the peaks that are obvious instead of trying to raise frequencies to match the ideal used by Harman Target Response Curve or Golden Ears/Accudio.
 
Compared to the Angie, the W60 doesn't have any of those problems. The very slight dip at around 4750 Hz is only about -3 dB and very subtle, so it's barely noticeable. The downward slope starting at 2 KHz when listening to log sweep tone is a little abrupt--I'd have preferred a gentler start of the downward slope, but it's such a minor thing and doesn't bother me at all. Essentially, I can listen to the W60 without ever needing to EQ it and be perfectly happy with it--which was my main objective from the beginning. Also, the W60 is far smaller and more comfortable ergonomically. 
 
But obviously, even though I believe I'm being completely objective in my mission to attain the most neutral/accurate sound, my objectivity may not be some people's ideal, due to differences in our hearing and other factors. Even just the amount of wax we have in our ears are different, let alone the shape of our ear canals, hearing ability, substance dependency that affects hearing (caffeine, alcohol, amount of sleep, etc.). For some people, they might not hear that pesky 7 KHz peak that bothers me so much in the K10U or Angie, even when playing a log sweep test tone or listening to bright masters, while for me, that 7 KHz peak is like a blindingly hot needle stabbing my eardrums when I listen to material that's mastered really bright. Ultimately you have to do your own objective testing to see if something matches your physiology and taste. 
 
Nov 17, 2015 at 3:22 AM Post #24 of 87
ι was eyeing angie , but maybe w60 is the one to get , judging by your (unbiased/free of hype+fanboyism) review
 
good job.
 
Nov 17, 2015 at 7:37 AM Post #25 of 87
I case this helps anyone.

GE Angie FR (compensated)



GE W60 FR (compensated)



W60 analysis: http://ko.goldenears.net/board/index.php?mid=GR_Earphones&page=2&document_srl=5737907
Angie analysis:
http://ko.goldenears.net/board/index.php?mid=GR_Earphones&page=2&document_srl=5760942

Ive seen other independent measurements of Angie that I feel represent Angie more to how I hear and it shows the dip to not be quite as wide. Never heard the W60, so can't comment but at least you have comparative measurements on the same rig and system.
 
Nov 17, 2015 at 11:05 AM Post #26 of 87
A very quick update. After more extensive testing of the W60 under different conditions (types of food ingested, amount of sleep) and a wider range of music with different mastering styles, there's definitely a peak around the 10 KHz region. This might not bother some people since so many headphones on the market have that charactersitic and people are probably so used to it, but it does bother me a bit, and I would certainly EQ that out whenever possible.

I'll be posting an EQ curve for the W60 later, to show what I'd do to make it as neutral as posssible, taking care of the 2 KHz, 4750 Hz, and 10 Khz regions.
 
Nov 17, 2015 at 10:26 PM Post #27 of 87
After more extensive testing under different circumstances (amount of sleep, amount of substance that might alter hearing such as caffeine, time of the day, wider range of music, more extensive EQ tweaking), I sadly have to recant my previous glowing praise of the W60. I've edited that original post to reflect my current and more careful assessment of the W60: http://www.head-fi.org/t/785154/need-recommendations-for-most-neutral-accurate-yet-musical-and-enjoyable-iem-in-sub-1-000-range-going-over-is-okay-if-its-really-worth-it/15#post_12083089
 
Nov 23, 2015 at 2:40 PM Post #28 of 87
The previous EQ curve I created for Angie can sound too bright on some material, so I created another one that only tames the three peaks in the upper-mids and lower-treble:

I also took out that slight bump centered at 800 Hz, for those who don't want to change anything else about the Angie except to tame its brightness.
 
This EQ curve makes Angie sound smoother and less aggressive.
 
I'm currently waiting for the 1964 EARS U5 to arrive. I've also got a Dunu Titan 1 coming (yes, it's got isolation issues, but it measures incredibly well that I just have to try it at least). 
 
Nov 23, 2015 at 6:32 PM Post #29 of 87
I know this is going to sound insane and people probably think I'm insane for suggesting them all the time but if you have ~$1,000 to spend I'd recommend dropping $10 on a pair of Baldoor/Mrice E100's and just...see...if you like them. I'd like to think I know a thing or two about headphones (look at my trader feedback for a taste of what I've owned) and these E100's are just, simply, the best I've ever owned. Everything about them is somehow amazing. Clarity, sound stage, bass, life-like mids (vocals are by far the best I've heard), etc. 
 
Just saying...what's $10 to possibly find what you want?
 
Nov 23, 2015 at 6:56 PM Post #30 of 87
  I know this is going to sound insane and people probably think I'm insane for suggesting them all the time but if you have ~$1,000 to spend I'd recommend dropping $10 on a pair of Baldoor/Mrice E100's and just...see...if you like them. I'd like to think I know a thing or two about headphones (look at my trader feedback for a taste of what I've owned) and these E100's are just, simply, the best I've ever owned. Everything about them is somehow amazing. Clarity, sound stage, bass, life-like mids (vocals are by far the best I've heard), etc. 
 
Just saying...what's $10 to possibly find what you want?

Too bad it's not IEM and has no isolation. Otherwise I'd definitely give it a shot. 
 
Funny enough, so far out of all the IEMs I've tested the only one I would seriously consider is the RE-600S, which is the cheapest one. Not because it sounds the best out of the box because it isn't, but because its default sonic signature is the least offensive and does not cause excessive brightness/sibilance that gets fatiguing like all the other IEMs I've tested. Yes, it's "boring" and "too flat," but at least when I listen to sources that have no option for parametric EQ, it won't hurt my ears. On sources that do allow parametric EQ, I can EQ it to sound ideally neutral, and it handles EQ really well and gets me the ideal frequency response with extended and punchy bass, great mids, and detailed but not fatiguing treble.
 
With the other IEMs, even though out of the box they might have great bass, or beautiful mids, or extended treble, they all suffer from excessive brightness or a peak resonance somewhere in the upper-mids or treble region that gets fatiguing--especially on material that's mastered on the brighter side. Even podcasts that are recorded with bright-sounding microphones can be annoying to listen to, where every other word is a whistling sibilance in my ears (particularly with female podcasters. Listen to K.M. Weiland's "Helping Writers Become Authors" podcast to see what I mean).
 
Personally, I can't understand why this doesn't bother more people (do most people suffer from hearing loss in the upper-mids and treble region?) and why headphone companies continue to make products that have obvious sibilance or peaky treble problems and then have the gulls to claim they are making "neutral reference class" headphones. Neutral my ass--they are all tuned subjectively with either peaky treble region around 10~12 KHz to "fake detail," or have sibilance issues in the 7 KHz region, or have recess in the 3~4 KHz region, or have too much bass bloat. None of them are objectively neutral (at least the ones I've heard). Play a log sweep test tone and you will hear all the peaks and valleys. I would have to use parametric EQ on them to get close to a neutral response that actually sounds smooth and flat when playing a log sweep test tone.
 
I have to wonder, when the headphone designers/engineers develop new products, do they actually aim to achieve a truly neutral/accurate flat response (perceptually, such as using something similar to the Harman target response curve), or they only claim they do but actually subjectively tune the headphones to be more pleasing? Are there even any IEMs out there that sound neutral/flat when playing back a log sweep test tone?
 

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