[BrookR1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by F107plus5 /img/forum/go_quote.gif If MS-1 sounded like SR-60 and used the same less expensive materials used in the SR-60 and cost the same price, then yes; there would be no reason to have the two models. But the MS-1 does use the more expensive materials, but keeps their costs down by eliminating the surprizingly expensive to produce and install ID button and perhaps even undercuts the Grado pricing structure at this level, but tons of folks in numerous polls and comparison threads have voiced the opinion that MS-1 is indeed different.

Tons of folks in those numerous polls have never listened to these two headphones side by side. I completely understand why. They're both entry level headphones and there's no reason to own both (unless like me, you're curious about the hyped-up sound differences). What error of percentage accuracy can we attribute to fanboy syndrome (applied to both sides)? We also have Senn, AKG, and Audio Technica people voting in those polls. Those differences in materials (if they really exist...I haven't seen an engineering spec...do you have a link?) are included in the price of the headphones. You're paying $30 extra, for ZERO return. You can't honestly tell me a 3 cent button has that much of an impact on price structure.

 

[BrookR1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by unclejr /img/forum/go_quote.gif I, too, wish I had a pair of 60s to compare! And a decent source. And maybe one of those new-fangled Apaches ... Dear Santa, ...

The average SR-60/MS-1 owner won't have thousands of dollars invested in a setup. If they did, they'd already have better headphones. I think a PCDP, iPod, and perhaps a low-level amp would reflect more a typical setup of the average SR-60/MS-1 user.

 

[F107plus5]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrookR1 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Tons of folks in those numerous polls have never listened to these two headphones side by side. I completely understand why. They're both entry level headphones and there's no reason to own both (unless like me, you're curious about the hyped-up sound differences). What error of percentage accuracy can we attribute to fanboy syndrome (applied to both sides)? We also have Senn, AKG, and Audio Technica people voting in those polls. Those differences in materials (if they really exist...I haven't seen an engineering spec...do you have a link?) are included in the price of the headphones. You're paying $30 extra, for ZERO return. You can't honestly tell me a 3 cent button has that much of an impact on price structure.

Going strictly by the Grado and Alessandro web sites and comparing the published specs indicates that the upgraded materials used in the SR-125 above the SR-80 and SR-60 are incorporated in the MS-1. The cable used in the MS-1 is of a four wire design rather than the three wire cable used in the SR-60. They also of course offer a choice in 1/8 or 1/4" connector. There apparently is also something else happening there in the housings to differentiate it from the SR-60, SR-80 or even SR-125 since the sensitivity is 2db greater, so that tells me that there is a difference there. The ID button is something mentioned here in this forum by one of the local Grado insiders who happened to volunteer that the button is surprisingly expensive and fussy to produce and deceptively tricky to install. I guess the way I look at it is that it is effectively an SR-125 in construction but with a five buck cheaper set of pads. Is the retail cost of the SR-125 justified? I dunno, but since there are similarities there, I guess I look at it as if the MS-1 were Alessandros dress-down version of the SR-125 with SR-60 clothing.

When I look at a poll where the numbers are something like 25%/75%, I kinda figure that although there may be inconsistencies in the data, that there must be some underlying kernel of truth buried in there. One of the things I always try to do when looking at one of these polls is to try to take a look at the respondents and get an idea of just how knowledgeable the voting base is. A lot of these folks have done a ladder climbing routine getting to an advanced standing here at Head-Fi and have spent some time with the entry level stuff too.

I should take a moment to explain just why it is that I'm an Alessandro fan rather than a Grado fan. Simple. MS-1 and MS2i sound more like my M3 & M50 speakers. If I had M2 & M60 speakers; I would be wearing SR-something-or-other instead! The M3s are just a bit less bright and exciting than the M2s. Not much; just barely noticeable. People over at my speaker forum told me "that" before I ever got here!

 

[unclejr]

Quite right, although I'd say that the difference or lack thereof may only be truly assessed once the rest of the variables are the most revealing. To say that no differences exist needs to be qualified (and it has, granted) with what the parameters of the test were.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrookR1 /img/forum/go_quote.gif The average SR-60/MS-1 owner won't have thousands of dollars invested in a setup. If they did, they'd already have better headphones. I think a PCDP, iPod, and perhaps a low-level amp would reflect more a typical setup of the average SR-60/MS-1 user.

 

[BrookR1]

The specs account for price difference, but don't account for sound difference. Like I said earlier, at the end of the day, it's the sound you're listening to, not the specs. That's where selling by specs has its faults. How do you explain the KSC-75s? $2 in materials, tops. Does the portaPro sound better because it uses $6 in materials?

The best advice for anyone searching for a headphone is to compare the sounds of headphones they are interested in and then make an informed decision based on what they hear. The next best advice is to ask someone who has actually listened to both and ask for their honest opinion. I wish I could get my hands on an MS-2i so I could compare them to my 325is. I'm beginning to wonder if "laid back" is really a myth. Because I actually believed the message that "MS-1s are more laid back" which is why I bought them...because I was searching for something comparable to my iGrados...a refined yet bassy iGrado sound in a home version. But, keep repeating the same mantra "they're more laid back" and you eventually believe it...and the more you believe it, the more you say it, the more others believe you. When in fact, no one has heard both side by side and they're just believing the mantra. Keep repeating those specs...they give you comfort.

You based a headphone decision on what a speaker forum told you? Not to knock those guys...I'm sure they know a lot.

 

[F107plus5]

Quote:

Originally Posted by donunus /img/forum/go_quote.gif F107plus5, Pls post your impressions on the sr60 in comparison with your alessandros

Reading what you have already said on the matter, I'd find it easier just copying your writings! If I do get the SR-60 I would really enjoy trying to put the differences to paper.

I may not do so well though! When I first received my HD600 from another Head-Fier, I popped on a "Carpenters" CD that I was quite familiar with through listening with my MS2i.

...as you had mentioned earlier; pick your music well.

I barely noticed a difference between the HD600 and the MS2i! It was freaky! I expected a ton of variations, true night and day stuff!!

I listened to the complete CD and enjoyed it as much as I had with the MS2i. Jolly Fun!

I then went on listening to classical on the Senns and rock predominately on the MS2i(yup; the complete Senns/Grado story-line indeed!)but a few weeks later I managed to begin listening to that same CD on the HD600 again and midstream I swapped phones with the MS2i. Bang, after becoming familiar more completely with the sound of the HD600, I could really see the differences in the presentation of these two phones. The "Carpenters" CD is one that has lots of components of both rock and classical quite well integrated and both cans sounded fabulous with it. Each presented certain aspects of the recording in their most flattering light, but until I was very familiar with each phones' presentation I hadn't yet learned how to Hear it properly.

 

[BrookR1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by unclejr /img/forum/go_quote.gif Quite right, although I'd say that the difference or lack thereof may only be truly assessed once the rest of the variables are the most revealing. To say that no differences exist needs to be qualified (and it has, granted) with what the parameters of the test were.

I say go for it then. I may have bad ears, who knows? I can definitely tell the difference between all of my other cans. Maybe a high-end setup can reveal some obscure frequencies I missed during my testing. I failed to record the relative humidity while ABing them, but to me, they sound identical. To someone else, they may seem .05% different. Whatever the results, I can guarantee that this test will take a really long time.

 

[unclejr]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrookR1 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I say go for it then. I may have bad ears, who knows? I can definitely tell the difference between all of my other cans. Maybe a high-end setup can reveal some obscure frequencies I missed during my testing. I failed to record the relative humidity while ABing them, but to me, they sound identical. To someone else, they may seem .05% different. Whatever the results, I can guarantee that this test will take a really long time.

This is truly shocking and appalling!

 

[F107plus5]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrookR1 /img/forum/go_quote.gif The specs account for price difference, but don't account for sound difference. Like I said earlier, at the end of the day, it's the sound you're listening to, not the specs. That's where selling by specs has its faults. How do you explain the KSC-75s? $2 in materials, tops. Does the portaPro sound better because it uses $6 in materials? The best advice for anyone searching for a headphone is to compare the sounds of headphones they are interested in and then make an informed decision based on what they hear. The next best advice is to ask someone who has actually listened to both and ask for their honest opinion. I wish I could get my hands on an MS-2i so I could compare them to my 325is. I'm beginning to wonder if "laid back" is really a myth. Because I actually believed the message that "MS-1s are more laid back" which is why I bought them...because I was searching for something comparable to my iGrados...a refined yet bassy iGrado sound in a home version. But, keep repeating the same mantra "they're more laid back" and you eventually believe it...and the more you believe it, the more you say it, the more others believe you. When in fact, no one has heard both side by side and they're just believing the mantra. Keep repeating those specs...they give you comfort. You based a headphone decision on what a speaker forum told you? Not to knock those guys...I'm sure they know a lot.

Actually, the guys who mentioned the differences in the phones are quite good speaker listeners! I've talked with them in the forum for years as we all went through the fun of building our speaker systems amongst plenty of other like-minded individuals. They just basically aimed me in the right direction. It took a while here before I bought the MS-1, and the idea of the purchase was to determine rather cheaply whether Alessandro WAS a good choice to match my speakers' sonic signature. If it was and I was happy with the sound after at least six months(it can take that long for subtle flaws to surface and drive you crazy)then I would decide on my next set of more serious phones. I drove many of the members nuts around her while I waged my own particular "Battle of the Twos" to determine if it were gonna be MS2i or RS-2.(and it took me a while to narrow it down to those two) Not being able to listen to either pair forced me to do extensive forum searches going back to day-one and beyond. The mountain of data I distilled was monumental! In the end it was the sound of the MS-1 which directed me to the MS2i since the MS-1 so very well matched my speakers and I understood that the highs of the MS2i would extend beyond what my MS-1 produced while the RS-2 had a slight, very very slight roll off in the same region, but that the MS2i sounded the same as MS-1, only "more"! And it only took me nine months to determine that! What was fun; was after a few months of living with MS2i I dragged out my notes and compared reality with data reduction and found that they matched!

Would I enjoy the SR-325i as much as MS2i? I dunno. If I were listening in a vacuum with no speakers sitting there to compare the sound to, maybe. But my speakers which I spent years researching and putting together is my baseline from which all else is judged. So I would expect that the SR-325i would not match the speakers and in fact would be a bit brighter perhaps and perhaps also a bit more forward. A significant amount? No; I wouldn't expect so. Would I notice the difference? I dunno. Maybe not right away. But if there's any difference at all, I also expect I would notice it after brain break-in. And so many folks here suggest that there is a difference that I'll bet they're right. I'd take the sum total of all their comments, remove 28% for enthusiasm, and get a darn near close approximation.

I probably won't find out though. My Phones match my speakers!!

The MS2i ARE my speakers in a better sonic environment in the stereo mode. Whats equally fun is if I add the surround speakers and go for the bigger classical stuff, my less warm and airy than HD650; HD600 do just as good a job with those tunes as the MS2i does with its' favorites. The HD600 are a great complement to the MS2i. Yeah; I did lots of studying before getting HD600 also!

This is such a fun Hobby!!

 

[donunus]

Quote:

Originally Posted by F107plus5 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Reading what you have already said on the matter, I'd find it easier just copying your writings! If I do get the SR-60 I would really enjoy trying to put the differences to paper.

The reason why I am looking forward to your impression is because you have the ms2is. I am interested to hear what you have to say about how the sr60s stand up against the alessandros. I would like to know if you think the ms2is and the ms1s are closer to each other than the sr60s to the ms1 for example. If this is the case then you might be the one to make me buy the ad2000 instead of my original ms2i plan. I like the grado sound signature but the thing that turns me off about them for serious listening is their cheap plasticky sound (the sr60s, 80s, and ms1s anyway)

 

[MaZa]

To stir things bit more and due to questions about Ms-Pro vs RS1 or ms2 - sr325i, here is a direct comparison between mspro and rs1.

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=44488

Not SR60 and MS1, but I guess thats close what the difference between those two should resemble. About SR325 and MS2, well, SR325i is one of the most hated Grado cans where ms2 is one of the most popular. One person even said they were quite close to HP1000 (actually sr200 with hp1000 drivers, but it matters not) when compared directly.

http://www.headphonereviews.org/head...headphoneId=75


This SR60 vs. MS1 debate seem VERY wierd. I wonder if his MS1 actuall has SR60 drivers by accident. Nah, couldnt be it, but everything is possible, especially with Grados quality control...




Oh, and the earlier graphs of SR60 and MS1 were not mine, but from ryumatsubas site. Anyone fluent in japanese? Could someone translate some key parts of his review? There might be some sr60 vs. ms1 comparisons under that kanji stuff, who knows. This could be interesting.

 

[donunus]

translate the page in google. http://translate.google.com/translat...language_tools

 

[MaZa]

Quote:

Originally Posted by donunus /img/forum/go_quote.gif translate the page in google. http://translate.google.com/translat...language_tools

Tried it already. Still dont understand a word. Engrish at its best.

Well, SR60 got 3.5 points where MS1 got 4 points. But judging from the pics, SR60 had FLAT pads (that review must be old if it was so), where MS1 had comfy pads so...

 

[F107plus5]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaZa /img/forum/go_quote.gif To stir things bit more and due to questions about Ms-Pro vs RS1 or ms2 - sr325i, here is a direct comparison between mspro and rs1. http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=44488 Not SR60 and MS1, but I guess thats close what the difference between those two should resemble. About SR325 and MS2, well, SR325i is one of the most hated Grado cans where ms2 is one of the most popular. One person even said they were quite close to HP1000 (actually sr200 with hp1000 drivers, but it matters not) when compared directly. This SR60 vs. MS1 debate seem VERY wierd. I wonder if his MS1 actuall has SR60 drivers by accident. Nah, couldnt be it, but everything is possible, especially with Grados quality control...

This IS very weird indeed! I mean if you think about it for a moment, the headphone universe has been churning along just fine for years and years. Everyone knew exactly where everything fit in the progression of things, and suddenly this unusual event comes along and threatens to disrupt everything. We have tons of data collected over the years explaining how things actually are, and just one incident of anomaly.

Do the two entry level Grado phones sound exactly alike? Well, according to one sincere and well meaning individual they do. According to lots and lots of other folks in these forums, they sound similar, but with differences sufficient to make decisions leading to one brand or the other in the Grado/Alessandro world.

Noting the utter lack of involvement in this debate by the vast knowledgeable population here, I suspect that most folks see this as something to go "huh?" about.

Anyway; it's probably time to move on and get back to business as usual.

....it WAS fun though!

 

[ricmat]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrookR1 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm not sure what you just said, but I'll try a paul van dyk CD and see if I notice more bass with the SR-60s. Funny, when I listened to the Arctic Monkeys' "The View From The Afternoon", I thought I initially heard more bass in the MS-1s. But when I switched back to the SR-60s at the same point in time, the bass was still there. But, maybe this isn't the correct song to make a comparison with? Can anyone else recommend a good song that will polarize the two headphones?

Hey man, why dont you try some blind test? Get some Y adapter and do it!

I think this is the only reliable way to do this kind of test! otherwise, you'll always be biased!