[Maelob]

For those that are not clear about LH labs return/refund policy. they will not refund any item that was purchased via Indieogo campaing. they will replace but will not refund. i guess thats the price for getting a "deal".

 

[kawaivpc1]

The new design looks great. Is it going to have a touch screen? or should we control this with our smartphones?

 

[nudd]

For those that are not clear about LH labs return/refund policy. they will not refund any item that was purchased via Indieogo campaing. they will replace but will not refund. i guess thats the price for getting a "deal".

 
I think it is actually illegal in many jurisdictions to not give a cooling off period or refund for purchases in error. So if you accidentally clicked a wrong button you should be allowed to immediately stop or chargeback on your credit card?

 

[doublea71]

I think it's going to have both, but the smartphone control is not priority #1. I guess that may take a bit longer to perfect. It is shaping up to be a good player despite the rocky journey, and I'm optimistic that it will have best in class sound quality in the end.

 

[Maelob]

   
I think it is actually illegal in many jurisdictions to not give a cooling off period or refund for purchases in error. So if you accidentally clicked a wrong button you should be allowed to immediately stop or chargeback on your credit card?

I tried, I probably should have push the issue with pay pal, but indiegogo said no sorry too late, and LH labs said sorry thats not how it works, which I think it was bull.....  I guess I should have complained to paypal but funny the paypal payment was to indiegogo (which had a no refund policy) and not LH (who washed their hands after getting the money).  
talking about loop holes of loop holes and off course no refund after you get it.  so win win for them, no so much for the customer who helped fund their product in the first place. kind of ironic. 

 

[georgelai57]

Getting involved with Indiegogo and Kickstarter is like lending money to a new business venture as an investor. It's not the same as buying a finished product.

 

[mscott58]

Getting involved with Indiegogo and Kickstarter is like lending money to a new business venture as an investor. It's not the same as buying a finished product.

Exactly. That's why in the investing world there's a category before Angel investors often called the 3F's - Friends, Family and Fools - people who might give you money because they know you or don't know any better. There's risk here, but without risk there would be no out-sized rewards - here that's great deals (hopefully) on awesome audio gear. Fingers crossed!

 

[miceblue]

Getting involved with Indiegogo and Kickstarter is like lending money to a new business venture as an investor. It's not the same as buying a finished product.

At least with Kickstarter you have the option to withdraw your pledge before the funding period ends. On Indiegogo, you can't back out of it period.

 

[tomscy2000]

  At least with Kickstarter you have the option to withdraw your pledge before the funding period ends. On Indiegogo, you can't back out of it period.

Yep, that's why KS > IGG
 
Companies like to complain that KS is too restrictive on their business practices, but at least they protect backers.

 

[doublea71]

IGG is a big roll of the dice. In spite of the fact that LH has frustrated the hell out of me during the campaign, I feel confident that they are indeed making a fantastic-sounding DAP. I still don't believe that they will meet the date they've set for shipment, but I'd rather wait awhile longer so that they can button it up and release a polished Geek Wave 1.0

 

[tomscy2000]

  IGG is a big roll of the dice. In spite of the fact that LH has frustrated the hell out of me during the campaign, I feel confident that they are indeed making a fantastic-sounding DAP. I still don't believe that they will meet the date they've set for shipment, but I'd rather wait awhile longer so that they can button it up and release a polished Geek Wave 1.0

Yes, I'd rather wait as well. They'll need the time. I'm very concerned about AOS or whatever it's called. Actually, from the way they were addressing the issue over the past few months, I sort of predicted that they'd drop the smartphone-controlled feature, but honestly, I don't think it's a good move. The smartphone control was the one major feature that differentiated the Wave from other DAPs --- the removal of this feature makes it "yet another expensive DAP" to many consumers who don't understand the engineering prowess of LH. The wireless control feature also makes it much more convenient for a large portion of the emergent market for DAPs (namely, Asia: Japan, China, Singapore, Korea, Malaysia, Indonesia, Thailand, Taiwan), as much of the younger population is dependent on mass transportation (buses, subway) to travel. Having one device they usually use to browse the internet and message with to control a secondary device that allows for superior sound quality would be a very appealing feature for many potential customers. By removing this feature, they've also removed themselves from a large portion of the potential mainstream user base, essentially forfeiting their goal of getting high-end audio to the masses.
 
As for AOS itself, we really need to start seeing the screenshots and general control scheme to know whether or not to worry. We enthusiasts are used to bad or not fully realized UIs, and this is the biggest hurdle for many people who are comfortable with their smartphone interfaces. I would harbor to guess that 98% of all people would gladly forgo a few more picoseconds of jitter for an intuitive interface.
 
It's also not just about the features in the UI --- the overall graphic design of the GUI will play a huge part in conveying the look and feel of the product --- it sill require a consistent design language that marries with the exterior design as well. Will the graphics be skeumorphic or like material design in Lollipop? How will that gestural control play into the way the screens are navigated? All these elements need to come together seamlessly.
 

---

 
Additionally, I'm disappointed by the large flat bezel around the glass. It really should be edge-to-edge glass, with beveled or chamfered edges. The thickness of the glass with help with depth perception that there are several "layers" to the DAP. As it looks, the glass will end up looking "recessed" within the body of the player, which isn't a great look.

 

[zerodeefex]

For those that are not clear about LH labs return/refund policy. they will not refund any item that was purchased via Indieogo campaing. they will replace but will not refund. i guess thats the price for getting a "deal".

I think it is actually illegal in many jurisdictions to not give a cooling off period or refund for purchases in error. So if you accidentally clicked a wrong button you should be allowed to immediately stop or chargeback on your credit card?

You're crowdfunding a development project and you get perks associated with your funding. Even over protective compliance regions like Germany don't enforce consumer protection law in this case as you are not buying a product. You are investing in an idea and hoping to obtain a product significantly under release MSRP. There are no guarantees for payout of your investment and you did not pay for equity in the company; you helped fund a development project. The checkout process for IGG is compliant with German and stringent EU consumer protection laws and contains an explicit TOS acceptance step (notice the button says "Continue" and had no mention of checkout on the button itself).

Here's a thought: if you're risk intolerant, wait for products to be released and buy them at full MSRP. If I didn't have a high risk threshold, i sure as peaches wouldn't have contributed. You agreed to the terms of service for Indiegogo and accepted that you were contributing to a development project.

 

[gyx11]

The crux of the problem is that there exists certain grey areas when it comes to terms associated with a 'development project'.

Take the Geek Wave for example. I understand the argument that a backer who paid $xxx for the Geek Pulse xxx will eventually get exactly what he paid for: a Geek Pulse xxx. I don't think that there's any denial that it will awesome for the price that it cost. But if you look closely at what was initially promised for a certain variation such as a standard Geek Pulse xfi with no additional perks, the initial description of the Geek Pulse xfi doesn't quite match up to where it stands right now in the midst of pricier and more premium iterations. Back when the original Geek Pulse campaign was nearing the end, the Geek Pulse xfi was essentially described as a no-holds-barred, best integrated DAC/Amp that the engineers at LHL could possibly conceive. As it turns out, it clearly isn't.

Then there's the argument that a product development spans over a period of time, that will invariably see new tech (e.g. new Sabre DAC chips for the GW) which unfortunately cost more $ to procure or implement. I'm totally fine with that, except for one simple question: where does this end? If you follow this line of argument, you might as well decide not to produce a final version of anything. Everytime LHL decides to introduce something new, say a new DAC chip, it takes another couple of months to complete, and towards the end of the 6 months, lo and behold, a revolutionary kind of superfemto clocks (hypothetical) becomes available, and let's say LHL decides to take that up as well. 6 months later, the state-of-the-art 'new ESS Sabre chip' becomes not so state of the art any longer, and LHL will feel the need to now offer the new 'new ESS Sabre chips' at an additional cost of $xx.

I understand that is not exactly something that is bad, or anything to do with ill intention on LHL's part. But seriously, I can already think of a number of ways which are better alternatives to their current business model.

1) just push out the darned product for what it is. more variants means more confusion. complete the Geek Pulse project and fulfill all orders. 1-2 years later, push out a new standalone campaign for Geek Pulse 2, or whatever you want to call it. I get LHL's enthusiasm for wanting to offer nothing but the best. prolonging a campaign for an absurd amount of time isn't the only way to go about achieving this

2) be a little less superfluous with descriptions. if LHL even considers the possibility of future variations of a certain product opening up in the future, then be transparent about it. don't use absolute terms like 'ultimate' and 'no compromise' and 'the best' for anything. I get that it's good for sales and business. but a good company with excellent track record and with products which speak for themselves can perhaps match it with some level of earnesty and transparency which will win them a whole chunk lot more supporters.

3) if LHL realizes the truth that some of their product descriptions can be misleading at times, and pleads for understanding that everything takes time to implement and e.t.c, then afford your customers the same mercies. Needs change over time. I've seen countless number of classifieds of Geek Pulses being put for sale because the original backer doesn't have any use for it any longer. Can't refund through IGG because of IGG rules and regulations, fair enough! Refund customers directly. Can't do refunds at all, alright that's still okay. Explore other options. Allow for transfer of ownership with full warranty and the little stuff still completely intact.

Some of this things are difficult to implement and easier said then done. But the fact is that it can be done, and any company which claims to exist for the masses and with sincerity shoud at least consider viable alternatives instead of putting all focus on relentless product development.

 

[nudd]

You're crowdfunding a development project and you get perks associated with your funding. Even over protective compliance regions like Germany don't enforce consumer protection law in this case as you are not buying a product. You are investing in an idea and hoping to obtain a product significantly under release MSRP. There are no guarantees for payout of your investment and you did not pay for equity in the company; you helped fund a development project. The checkout process for IGG is compliant with German and stringent EU consumer protection laws and contains an explicit TOS acceptance step (notice the button says "Continue" and had no mention of checkout on the button itself).

Here's a thought: if you're risk intolerant, wait for products to be released and buy them at full MSRP. If I didn't have a high risk threshold, i sure as peaches wouldn't have contributed. You agreed to the terms of service for Indiegogo and accepted that you were contributing to a development project.

 
I am not talking about second thoughts here. I am talking about mistakenly clicking on something or buying something other than what you thought you bought. If you were mistakenly funding something otherwise than what you thought it was, I think you should be able to cancel the transaction. Especially since descriptions can be vague at best with these campaigns.

 

[gikigill]

There are 3 confirmations, you have to enter your PayPal password and another confirmation. If you have gone past 4 confirmations, pretty sure you know how you got there.

"I fell on it" only works in front of a physician.