[kiteki]

@piggy why HM-801 and not HM-602?

 

[DaveBSC]

Quote:

Thanks for your reply. That's what I inferred from the non-troll replies from this thread too.
 
I want to use the HM-801 to double as a desktop DAC/amp too. It takes much less space than the real things, so that is a plus.

I can report that the 801 is surprisingly decent as a desktop DAC, provided you use the coaxial digital input. The sound over USB stinks, and that should only be used for something like podcasts from a laptop where quality doesn't matter.

 

[kiteki]

Wow the USB Dac is that bad?
 
Thanks for your honestly, headfonia.com didn't rate them very highly either.
 
Why is it so hard to get a decent USB Dac? =(  I have to return my Yulong U100 now and it's such a hassle returning stuff, for me at least.

 

[DaveBSC]

Quote:

Wow the USB Dac is that bad?
 
Thanks for your honestly, headfonia.com didn't rate them very highly either.
 
Why is it so hard to get a decent USB Dac? =(  I have to return my Yulong U100 now and it's such a hassle returning stuff, for me at least.

The original plan was for it not to have one, but customers requested it so they threw one in. It uses the same type of lousy USB implementation as other 16/48 limited USB DACs where it must go through a conversion before I2S. If you need to get sound out of a device and all you have to work with is USB, well it does that. It should be considered a last resort though.
 
If you're looking for a portable DAC with high quality asynchronous USB and you don't need any DAP capabilities, check out John Kenny's JKDAC. I don't think there's anything else quite like it on the market, certainly not for that price.
 

 

[kiteki]

How much? Where to buy? can't find much on google

 

[wind016]

 
Quote:

One day you may decide to listen to higher sample rates. It does make a difference. Like Bojamijams, I'm not sure what value you will get from reading comments from people that don't have the equipment or tell you it's no good based on their concept of "specs". Specs don't mean diddley. You have to listen to the equipment and then decide.

I'm a big supporter of "if it sounds good to you, go with it," but when it costs 4 times more than any of the competition, well... you should get the idea.
 


Quote:

I did my comparison testing in my office, which has a noise floor in the 30ish dB range. Obviously the more background noise there is, the smaller the differences will be. The low impedance version of the DT880 is intended to be portable friendly, but it demands current and the S9 simply ain't got it. With no EQ or enhancements the 880 had pretty much no bass to speak of, thin, reedy mids, and unrefined highs with no definition or detail. With all of the EQ stuff turned on, the bass was lumpy and bloated, mids were grainy, and highs were splashy, harsh, and overbearing. In either case the 880 was pretty much unlistenable out of the S9. The 250 Ohm version might've been better, I don't know. It would probably require maximum volume to hear much, but the current demand would be lower. The 120 Ohm K601 worked fine with the volume at 75-80%. Obviously the 600 Ohm isn't even worth trying.
 
That's not to say that the only thing the 801 gives you is a more powerful amp. The DAC section is a considerable step up from whatever dirt cheap crap is in a Cowon or Clip and I heard this with the ES10, even though those headphones have little in the way of refinement and one of the smallest soundstages I've experienced. The S9 has no trouble driving the ES10, and the sound out of the 801 was still better in every way. A better sounding portable like the DT1350 should be fantastic out of the 801. I have not done that comparison, but I found the 1350 to be merely above average out of my S9, and I suspect that they have much more to give than I heard.
 
If you want to listen on the subway or on a bus, the 801 is silly. I use my S9 and my NC-800s in that situation. I'm not interested in maximum fidelity there, I just want to get rid of as much background noise as possible. In situations where I'm away from my desktop Stax rig but I do want maximum fidelity, that's when I use the 801, and I will soon be getting a pair of LA7000s for that purpose. Driving the LA7000 out of a Clip is just brainless, and making the Clip louder by attaching a TTVJ Slim or ALO RX is not going to catch the 801. Using an iPod into one of the new portable iTransport style devices and THEN into a Slim or RX could very well beat the 801, but I like the one box solution that the 801 offers, as well as the FLAC and APE support.
 

The only headphone there that I would consider portable is the ES10, but the way you described the difference sounds to be more due to the treble roll-off than actually being a better DAC. Probably, the only way I would be convinced that the HM801 is any more than snake oil is if in comparison the Ultrasone ED8 on the HM801 has a much larger soundstage than the disgustly 2-D soundstage the ED8 has on the Cowon. The ED8 would be the biggest headphone I would consider for office use, otherwise I would opt for something like my Audio Technica ESW10JPN. But then again, comparing with the ED8 is probably weighing more on the amplifier than the DAC of the HIFIMAN which still has treble roll off. We know the amp on the HIFIMAN is most likely better, but the DAC? I really doubt it.
 

 
Quote:

@wind016
 
TBH I don't recommend the clip+ nor the HM-801.
 
I think the HM-601 is reasonably priced, however if anyone asks me about a DAP, I say Teclast T51! and I'm anticipating the Teclast T59 coming soon.
 
I haven't heard the J3 but I sold the Cowon S9 within a week! It was my first high-end DAP and I was quite disappointed and put a negative review of it up on head-fi, I think that was my first post on head-fi I had to sign up to let people know not to buy the S9.
 
The Clip has a great price to performance ratio, but it doesn't compete with stuff like Teclast, in this case I have heard both.

I forgot where I read your impressions before, but it seemed like a case if not fully understanding how to use BBE. No matter how much I tell people that they may be using BBE incorrectly, they remain stubborn and don't bother to try out my setting recommendations that take no more than 30 seconds to do. People seem to experience that the oversampling on the BBE with high settings changes the FR, but do not bother to compensate when it does.
 

 

[wind016]

Quote:

I still get great chuckles from people on here bashing gear they don't understand and/or can't afford.
 
If I can't hear a difference then there must be none because my ears are the greatest in the world and I can tell the difference in everything!!!!!
 
Please people, get over yourselves.

Quote:

One day you may decide to listen to higher sample rates. It does make a difference. Like Bojamijams, I'm not sure what value you will get from reading comments from people that don't have the equipment or tell you it's no good based on their concept of "specs". Specs don't mean diddley. You have to listen to the equipment and then decide.

Well now. Here we have opinions from people that never heard a decent DAC nor high end headphones. Yes, specs don't mean diddley. We are all welcome to never look at them again and live in placebo land.
 

 

[kiteki]

 
Quote:

I forgot where I read your impressions before, but it seemed like a case if not fully understanding how to use BBE. No matter how much I tell people that they may be using BBE incorrectly, they remain stubborn and don't bother to try out my setting recommendations that take no more than 30 seconds to do. People seem to experience that the oversampling on the BBE with high settings changes the FR, but do not bother to compensate when it does.
 

I didn't experiment much with BBE, It's a matter of taste, I'm usually more of a clean flat signal No eq type listener, I love eq'ing sometimes but in the end I prefer gear which sounds best on flat, the S9 is not this and there's data (on paper) that shows it.

 

[wind016]

 
Quote:

 

I didn't experiment much with BBE, It's a matter of taste, I'm usually more of a clean flat signal No eq type listener, I love eq'ing sometimes but in the end I prefer gear which sounds best on flat, the S9 is not this and there's data (on paper) that shows it.

Gotcha. Cowon's EQ is Cowon's bread and butter. Without it, there is probably something better. Having heard the HIFIMAN, I'm not convinced the HIFIMAN is that, though I haven't heard a portable DAP that sounded significantly better than one another.
 
BTW, I like the HIFIMAN orthos, so I'm not just anti-HIFIMAN.

 

[kiteki]

I haven't heard any Hifiman and the HM-801 seems overpriced I mean seriously I could buy the best vintage rare Sony portable CD player BRAND NEW for less than that price, so yeah....
 
T51 is the only DAP I've heard that sounds a level up from, say, a regular PC sound-card, and it has a flat very clean signal on the line-out, and slightly warm and spacier signal on the headphone-out.
 
I didn't think that much of it at first, but after getting used to it for months, I go back to a basic Sony gumstick, PC soundcard, or Clip (not +) and then I can tell the difference quite easily when I'm used to the T51 sound.

 

[keyeman]

I should have included a more meaningful reply but I get a kick out of "spec"tators. Anyway, I do own a few components by the same manufacturers: a Hifiman HM601 and a QLSHiFi QA350. So you know what I am comparing to, I've owned an iRiver H140, iPod Classic, iTouch, a Sony MZ-RH1, Sony PCM-M1, etc, on and on, always trying to find a device that reporduces sound as if I were there. All of the units I mentioned reproduced audio very well, (had OK DAC's, etc)  but what they all lacked was a decent internal headphone amp that had enough power to drive a nice set of earphones or headphones and resolve all of the music.
 
The HM601 is a very nice unit and it has a great internal headphone amp and excellent DAC's -I mean nothing in the above units comes close. I thoroughly enjoy all types of music especially live concerts. With this rig, you are there in the middle of the session or concert whether you are listening to a16bit/44.1khz or a 24bit/96khz recording. Of course it can sound even better if you use an external amp like a Ray Samuels or an infamous Shellbrook unit. But I think you will like the quality of the sound just as it is. I've had the HM601 for about 8 months or so and have had no malfunctions. It is however a little finicky with the brand of SD card, so go with the manufacturer's recomendation. The unit is relatively small (a little larger that a pack of cigarettes and just as thick),  and relatively light weight. It's made well but I view it as not as solidly built as an iPod Classic. It's a good portable unit to carry. Again, the audio is breathtaking. I know this isn't an HM801, but breathtaking audio quality runs in Hifiman's product line.
 
The QA350 from QLAHifi is a real gem. This is my favorite unit. It's large (3x7x1), clunky and moderately heavy but it's an easy carry if you listen from a shoulderbag, etc. The audio is something else: fantastic. While the internal headphone amp is excellent and all most people will need, I usually pair mine with a shellbrook signature mini-head or Ray Samuels Hornet. It's also finicky about the brand of SD cards. You can read more about these two fantastic units here on Head-Fi or at the manufacturer's sites. The folks at Qlshifi (QA350) seems to be very involved with improving their products (firmware updates based on user input) and they are easy to contact. Lastly, this is a 16bit 44.1khz solid state unit. It will not play higher sample rates but the sound is astounding. I has outputs for digital coax, fiber and 1/8" unamplified audio.
 
I would recommend either of these units if you are looking for high definition sound. You won't be disappointed. Other things you will need: good quality high definition software such as Media Center or Media Monkey as well as good conversion software such as dBpoweramp.
 
Try listening to some of the High Definition offerings on the web from HD Tracks and HD Tape Transfers. Digital is trying to become analog.
 
In closing, it's all relevent to what you find pleasing to your ears. No specs are going to tell you that. You will find no ear "fatigue" with either of these.
 
   
 

 

[kiteki]

Thanks, very informative post.
 
How powerful is the HO on the QA350?

 

[wind016]

 
Quote:

I should have included a more meaningful reply but I get a kick out of "spec"tators.
 
 

Now I understand you may prefer a rolled off sound, but did not occur to you that maybe HIFIMAN could use a decent DAC that doesn't roll off and include an "analog" sounding filter instead? What are you paying for? Big bucks for a permanent filter.
 
But hey, my idea of portable may be different also. I take my portable setup to practice tennis and going jogging. If you want a portable rig for an office, wouldn't it be more convenient to have a smaller portable player with a line out and a decent amplifier that stays at work? Or does it have to cost a lot, be clunky, and have treble roll off to be considered good?
 

 

[El_Doug]

I used JH-13s with both the HM-801 and the Clip+, and preferred the Clip+ by a long shot. 
 
FYI, the JH-13s cost a ton more than $200
 
Quote:

To suggest that the HM-801 sounds worse than a mass market DAP because of frequency response curves or crosstalk is ludicrous, that's like judging $10K monoblocks based on THD measurements. This one is 0.005% better, therefore it sounds better cause der measurement said so! I maintain that anyone that says the 801 sounds worse than a clip has not listened to it with headphones that cost more than $200.

 

 

[Achmedisdead]

Quote:

To suggest that the HM-801 sounds worse than a mass market DAP because of frequency response curves or crosstalk is ludicrous, that's like judging $10K monoblocks based on THD measurements. This one is 0.005% better, therefore it sounds better cause der measurement said so! I maintain that anyone that says the 801 sounds worse than a clip has not listened to it with headphones that cost more than $200.
 

 
I love when the price of the gear gets brought into these debates....just because something costs a lot of money does not automatically mean that it will sound good, whether you're talking about a source or headphones. Yet that price argument seems to come up a lot when the HifiMan players are being discussed, doesn't it? Like the "you just bash it because you can't afford it" comments in another thread....lol.
 
So as far as the sentence in the quote above that I put in bold.....so what if you use a set of Beats?