[mirumu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davesrose /img/forum/go_quote.gif I haven't heard the $1K+ ones, so they may be different (in fact, at least HeadRoom's FRG of the STAX 007 has a tapering in the mids as well: IMHO, a good indication of how "impactful" a headphone might be).

Of all the graphs on HeadRoom I feel that's probably the one most likely to be flawed given it's being driven by the SRM-007t which seems to be an amp few would chose for the O2s. I have no idea what other amps would do to that graph but I certainly don't detect such a large midrange depression on my setup.

 

[Davesrose]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mirumu /img/forum/go_quote.gif Of all the graphs on HeadRoom I feel that's probably the one most likely to be flawed given it's being driven by the SRM-007t which seems to be an amp few would chose for the O2s. I have no idea what other amps would do to that graph but I certainly don't detect such a large midrange depression on my setup.

The Headroom FRGs were generated using a dummy head: so I think a dead neutral headphone would show up with a recession in the upper middle areas because of the pinna notch: HeadRoom was trying to weight the graphs on how your ears will actually receive the sound: where HRTF has more of a factor because of the sources being really close to your ears.

I think because of our perceptions of sound, this is why a recession in FR is not a bad thing: as our ears are accustomed to equalizing the softened treble they recieve in a normal listening situation.

http://www.headphone.com/technical/p...re-headphones/

 

[spritzer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davesrose /img/forum/go_quote.gif Read most stat threads, and that's what the criticism of them are (at least especially with Lambdas)...that they're transparent, but can lack impact. I haven't heard the $1K+ ones, so they may be different (in fact, at least HeadRoom's FRG of the STAX 007 has a tapering in the mids as well: IMHO, a good indication of how "impactful" a headphone might be). I would like to hear the GS1000 because its FRG is very different then the 325i: which I'm hoping might help with vinyl. Currently, my 650s are the best for vinyl: vinyl seems to get nice extension and soundstage, but misses some crisp detail that's present on CD/SACD. With the 325, it gets more detail then the 650, but it doesn't have much extension: sounds very tin canish. Looking at the FRG of the GS1000 (I know, there's only so much you can infer from a FRG), but it seems to have lots of bass and treble extension, and not as much emphasis in just the upper middle frequencies as other Grados.

You can read about stats all day but you have to hear them on a good amp to know that 95% of what is said about them isn't worth anything. I'm now using a Koss ESP6, a stat that was introduced in 1969 and they can slam when driven from the right amp. In the end it's all down to preference and some people like the distortion and problems associated with dynamics

 

[mirumu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davesrose /img/forum/go_quote.gif The Headroom FRGs were generated using a dummy head: so I think a dead neutral headphone would show up with a recession in the upper middle areas because of the pinna notch: HeadRoom was trying to weight the graphs on how your ears will actually receive the sound: where HRTF has more of a factor because of the sources being really close to your ears. I think because of our perceptions of sound, this is why a recession in FR is not a bad thing: as our ears are accustomed to equalizing the softened treble they recieve in a normal listening situation.

Well I guess it would explain why the O2s sound as good as they do at lower volumes as well. I do wish though HeadRoom had showed plots with other amps. I think you may be surprised at the difference it could make for the O2.

 

[Davesrose]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mirumu /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well I guess it would explain why the O2s sound as good as they do at lower volumes as well. I do wish though HeadRoom had showed plots with other amps. I think you may be surprised at the difference it could make for the O2.

Well I guess they would have to have pretty exuastive tests to make sure each headphone tested was driven by it's optimal source and amp. At the end of the day, that's another reason why we latch on to certain headphones and build a system for them. Each headphone, be it stat or dynamic, can have a lot of good merits when driven properly. They still retain some of their original characteristics though. Spritzer is right, in the end it's all down to preference and some people like the distortion and problems associated with electrostats

 

[mirumu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davesrose /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well I guess they would have to have pretty exuastive tests to make sure each headphone tested was driven by it's optimal source and amp. At the end of the day, that's another reason why we latch on to certain headphones and build a system for them. Each headphone, be it stat or dynamic, can have a lot of good merits when driven properly. They still retain some of their original characteristics though.

I don't think you quite understand what I'm getting at exactly. It's not about finding the optimal amp or even a great amp. Electrostatic headphones have very demanding requirements of an amp and some amps just will not provide enough voltage to get a feel for the normal sound of the headphone. I'm not implying that the SRM-007t is such an amp, it is certainly sold by STAX (well the 007tII now) as a suitable driver for the O2, but here at least it seems to be considered less than ideal. Personally I'd have preferred to see results with the SRM-717 (or today, the SRM-727) which is actually a cheaper configuration since it seems to be the preferred of the official offerings. Maybe the graph wouldn't change, I don't know but I think it's of limited usefulness since it's not the configuration people coming here for advice would typically end up buying.

Quote:

Spritzer is right, in the end it's all down to preference and some people like the distortion and problems associated with electrostats

Distortion? What have you been listening to?

 

[Davesrose]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mirumu /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't think you quite understand what I'm getting at exactly. It's not about finding the optimal amp or even a great amp. Electrostatic headphones have very demanding requirements of an amp and some amps just will not provide enough voltage to get a feel for the normal sound of the headphone.

I do understand and was merely turning it around that each headphone (regardless of type) has different load requirements. I'm sure the FRG would be different with a better amp for the STAX, just as it would for any headphone. The same conditions were stated to me when I said that I'm not really as into the k1000's presentation either: that maybe I didn't listen to it with the best amp. There's no absolute best headphone (well except of cotdt gets on here

) , because each headphone has its own inherent musicality: that some will like and others won't. Actually, of the Headroom graphs that baffel me the most is the HE90 graph: I notice its mids are pretty flat: so I'm wondering if they're actually extended to take the pinna notch into account.

 

[matt8268]

I love my 313/303 combo for classical. Classical is the genre where I feel my Stax setup handily beats most every other setup I've had.

 

[mirumu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davesrose /img/forum/go_quote.gif I do understand and was merely turning it around that each headphone (regardless of type) has different load requirements. I'm sure the FRG would be different with a better amp for the STAX, just as it would for any headphone. The same conditions were stated to me when I said that I'm not really as into the k1000's presentation either: that maybe I didn't listen to it with the best amp. There's no absolute best headphone (well except of cotdt gets on here ) , because each headphone has its own inherent musicality: that some will like and others won't.

The reason I'm not sure you really do understand is that you're responding to statements that may often be made around here but are not in any way representative of what I'm saying. I'm not commenting at all on what is "the best" and not suggesting my favorite headphone should be given an advantage to make me feel better. I'm talking about baseline adequate performance for something close to what might be a typical configuration and I'm not sure that the 007t represents that. The SRM-717 I suggested actually retailed for less than the SRM-007t. I'd certainly hope HeadRoom are are driving the HD650 with an adequate amp too. If they weren't doing so then their graphs wouldn't be particularly representative of typical case performance and ultimately not that useful.

 

[wower]

Quote:

Originally Posted by matt8268 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I love my 313/303 combo for classical. Classical is the genre where I feel my Stax setup handily beats most every other setup I've had.

That's good to hear. I'm looking at the same setup but with the 404. I have gone through many reviews, some head-to-head, and they seem exactly the same. The money different is not an issue but my logic is that the cord could make a different with such a sensitive headphone. If I get the 313/303, then I will probably pick up a audiophile grade power cord with the difference (or just pick it up later if I get the 404).

 

[Andre Jute]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wower /img/forum/go_quote.gif I was just wondering if people would like to share their experiences of using Stax gear with classical music? I have searched the forums and, besides getting the huge Stax thread, can't find anything useful. I have been looking at Stax to compliment my ATH-2000s, which I love to bits, but the string section might as well be synth keyboards in regard to classical music. Maybe we can amass some wisdom in this thread?

No loudspeaker is uncoloured. Some are less coloured than others. Electrostats are less coloured than most. The same applies to earphones.

It is the transparency of electrostatic earphones that make them so good for classical music. That applies especially to chamber music, voices of any scale. Presently I'm playing my way through all the Handel oratorio, on Quad ESL while my family is awake, on Stax 202 while I work into the night after they go to bed. It's a seamless experience

Some say that the downside is that electrostats, floorstanders and earphones both, lack bass slam; that they do, but that doesn't mean they lack bass; it is the bass "slam" that lesser speakers (and amplified music, which of course doesn't apply to classical music) have accustomed people to which is artificial, in fact dirty, nothing but harmonic distortion. Electrostats have enough nice clean bass so that you are tempted to turn the volume up to enjoy more of it. (Don't -- you will damage your ears. In fact, those who lack self-control with the volume knob should stay away from electrostats. Clean decibels will harm your hearing quite as quickly as dirty decibels; it's the number of decibels that matter, not the culture of each decibel!)

Electrostats do superbly with acoustic music, probably because they move too short a distance for materials to distort badly, probably also because the push-pull dipole membrane is a more "natural" sonic construct that cone speakers. As corollary evidence, I offer the wonderful clean bass you can get from a properly constructed horn with a Lowther driver, which moves about 1mm max.

The Stax earphones do not seem to me to differ all that much but they can be sensitive to the driving amp. However, we can make too much of an obsessive muchness of small differences. The Stax amps in the factory-matched packs seem pretty good amps and pretty good value too (I've heard the ones at the extremes of the current range, the 252 and the 007t).

The key consideration for me, as a constant concert-goer (I reviewed live and recorded music for over forty years), is that an electrostat reproduces something nearer the sound one hears in the concert hall than any other earphone. So I think that, unless you are one of those audiophiles forever looking for a reason to "upgrade" your gear, any of the Stax earspeakers and the matching amp will give a superior rendition of classical music to that available from the non-electrostatics.

The modern Stax is also the most comfortable earphone I know to wear for several hours at a time, which matters if you want to play an example of one of the more extended classical genres through at a sitting.

HTH.

Andre Jute
Visit Jute on Amps at http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/
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[smeggy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davesrose /img/forum/go_quote.gif There's no absolute best headphone (well except of cotdt gets on here )

Well you certainly pimp the 650 almost as much as cotdt pimps the 701s so I'm not convinced you really believe that

Oh and for the record I find the senns dull and pedantic.

 

[Davesrose]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mirumu /img/forum/go_quote.gif The reason I'm not sure you really do understand is that you're responding to statements that may often be made around here but are not in any way representative of what I'm saying. I'm not commenting at all on what is "the best" and not suggesting my favorite headphone should be given an advantage to make me feel better. I'm talking about baseline adequate performance for something close to what might be a typical configuration and I'm not sure that the 007t represents that. The SRM-717 I suggested actually retailed for less than the SRM-007t. I'd certainly hope HeadRoom are are driving the HD650 with an adequate amp too. If they weren't doing so then their graphs wouldn't be particularly representative of typical case performance and ultimately not that useful.

System synergy is a double sword: it can either improve a headphone, or hamper it. I understand you're saying that the HeadRoom graph isn't totally indicative of the performance of the Omega II . I've been saying that to be tonally neutral, the graph shouldn't be dead flat on those graphs to begin with (because their models utilize the pinna of the ear). And it was just the overall consensus of what I tried to sumerize of what I've heard of electrostats, and were present in the few examples I have listened to (and yes, they're just a few examples and not indicative of all stats). Obviously, when you have a stunning source and amp, the "shortcomings" critisisms, etc, are way diminished and a headphone becomes more neutral. I would expect my HD650 would have a more even FRG on the Headroom graph, as I've picked out sources that are detailed, extended, and have a high gain. An electrostat doesn't have to have as expensive a source or amp to be neutral, in all probablity. Now that I have a really nice setup that is many times the price of my headphones, does that mean it would sound like a benchmark STAX? Obviously not....while I think it's tonally neutral for it's application (symphonies and electronica), it's still not going to be as bright or detailed as some. It's a type of tonality that I hear at concert venues (where there isn't as much transparency). So I think milkpowder had something with his impressions of the HD650 and 404: of course his impression of the HD650 is more the critical impression of the 650 (confounded when it's not on a stellar amp and source)....that the 650 can be too bassy and muddy: too extended for strings. Well one thing is for sure, if I do follow his advise and get one dynamic and one electrostat.....that means yet a lot more money for the Omega II and amp (hopefully my source would be good)

I really need to leave this site

 

[Davesrose]

Quote:

Originally Posted by smeggy /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well you certainly pimp the 650 almost as much as cotdt pimps the 701s so I'm not convinced you really believe that Oh and for the record I find the senns dull and pedantic.

excuse me....on the n00b threads, I have suggested Grados, ATs, AKGs, and Senns many times. I have never told a person seeking advise on the best headphone for metal, trance, etc that the HD650 is the end all be all. I know I'm a hopeless Sennheiser fanboy....I'm quite open about that

There's a difference between being a fanboy and a troll

But I also like to think that I'm practicle in my appraisals and suggestions. The Senns may be dull and pedantic, but they work for Mozart and Massive Attack for me

 

[smeggy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davesrose /img/forum/go_quote.gif excuse me....on the n00b threads, I have suggested Grados, ATs, AKGs, and Senns many times. I have never told a person seeking advise on the best headphone for metal, trance, etc that the HD650 is the end all be all. I know I'm a hopeless Sennheiser fanboy....I'm quite open about that There's a difference between being a fanboy and a troll But I also like to think that I'm practicle in my appraisals and suggestions. The Senns may be dull and pedantic, but they work for Mozart and Massive Attack for me

Not being a total troll definitely works in your favour

Personally I find the Stax SR-X is the best of all my cans for classical, doesn't do majstic bass but for the mids/highs they are superb. I didn't really like the 404 for classical much and the K1000 can be a little sharp. The Gammas are a little boxy sounding and the 003 can suffer from a lack of bite, being so smooth. I haven't heard the Omega so can't comment. I don't like the Senn presentation at all and many Grados are too peaky. This is why people need to listen for themselves as we all have opinions and preferences.