[Davesrose]

Quote:

Originally Posted by milkpowder /img/forum/go_quote.gif There's just a very slight artificial element to how the the SR-404 presents its upper mids. I feel there isn't enough body and warmth. Maybe 'thin' is the right word? Maybe not. 'Restrained'? I really can't say. I can't believe I'm being so critical and perdantic because apart from this, I am completely satisfied with how my Stax is sounding.

That's the best description I've read on what the difference of a stat vs dynamic is. Well at least the stats, under $1k, I've heard. Senns could be too warm and distant for some. The 404 is the opposite and very upfront and detailed. Since I'm into classical guitar as well, I just gotta have good timbre and body...so I sided more with extension over transparency. I think on my current setup, the HD650 is just the right amount of transparency for its soundstage.

After this thread, though, I think I may need to try out the Omega II sometime

Sounds like it doesn't suffer from extension the way other stats might. But problem is that after money spent on a new vinyl rig, I'm actually building up a CD collection now. yourmusic.com can be very evil: picking up lots of boxed sets of classical music now

 

[Davesrose]

Quote:

Originally Posted by humanflyz /img/forum/go_quote.gif I am puzzled at the statement that electrostats lack extension. In my experience, that is the one thing they don't lack. All the electrostats I've heard so far (SR-404, O2, HE60/90) have had the best extension I've heard in headphones. What they lack, in a general/broad sense, is impact.

Not hearing the most expensive stats, but in the case of the 404: milkpowder may be finding it more colored in the upper mids, because its lower bass and upper treble is rolled off. Bass is really needed for timbre. AKGs are the closest dynamic headphone that's like stats I've heard: they too can emphasize the upper mids, so the lower bass doesn't seem as impactful. Impact can happen in either bass or treble (ie some rock genres I definitely get bass impact from my HD650, and others I get more impact in the treble from my SR325i). One of the reasons the HD580 series has softer mids is so that you can hear the bass and treble extension. In the case of the 404 vs the HD650, I got a much better sense of extension with the 650 (whether it's too warm for some folks, that's another matter).

 

[humanflyz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davesrose /img/forum/go_quote.gif Not hearing the most expensive stats, but in the case of the 404: milkpowder may be finding it more colored in the upper mids, because its lower bass and upper treble is rolled off. Bass is really needed for timbre. AKGs are the closest dynamic headphone that's like stats I've heard: they too can emphasize the upper mids, so the lower bass doesn't seem as impactful. Impact can happen in either bass or treble (ie some rock genres I definitely get bass impact from my HD650, and others I get more impact in the treble from my SR325i). One of the reasons the HD580 series has softer mids is so that you can hear the bass and treble extension. In the case of the 404 vs the HD650, I got a much better sense of extension with the 650 (whether it's too warm for some folks, that's another matter).

I see what you mean, but whenever I use the term "extension", I'm using it to mean the objective extension in frequency. So when I say that some headphone has more extension than another, I mean that I have tested them using tone-generators. But I certainly see your point about how tonal balance can affect subjective perceptions of extension.

 

[mirumu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davesrose /img/forum/go_quote.gif After this thread, though, I think I may need to try out the Omega II sometime Sounds like it doesn't suffer from extension the way other stats might. But problem is that after money spent on a new vinyl rig, I'm actually building up a CD collection now. yourmusic.com can be very evil: picking up lots of boxed sets of classical music now

I'm not quite sure what you mean when you say electrostatics lack extension. There are some that do, the SR-003 treble is quite rolled off and the SR-X MK3 is somewhat rolled off in the bass but in my experience they're the exceptions, not the norm. The Omega II has some roll off in the very lowest bass region but this isn't the impression it leaves you with while listening. Personally I've yet to hear any headphone come close to the Sennheiser HE60 in terms of extension, both 20Hz and 20Khz were clear as day. It was only impact and body in the lower regions I found wanting but much of this would have been due to use of the HEV70 amp. While I could not claim to have heard the best dynamics, none of those I own or have heard come close to either the HE60 or O2 in real extension. For impact and tactile bass, the strengths of a dynamic headphone, things are another matter but in my opinion the O2 holds it's own in this regard as well. Having not heard any Lambdas I cannot comment on those.

 

[Carl]

Quote:

Originally Posted by humanflyz /img/forum/go_quote.gif I am puzzled at the statement that electrostats lack extension. In my experience, that is the one thing they don't lack. All the electrostats I've heard so far (SR-404, O2, HE60/90) have had the best extension I've heard in headphones. What they lack, in a general/broad sense, is impact.

I don't find the HE60 especially extended, it starts rolling off at 50Hz. Maybe I'm just more demanding when it comes to frequency range.

 

[Davesrose]

Quote:

Originally Posted by humanflyz /img/forum/go_quote.gif But I certainly see your point about how tonal balance can affect subjective perceptions of extension.

And I think that's the main point in why headphone makers adjust the frequency response to not be dead flat. What someone will hear and percieve as being lively will be dull and lacking with someone else. Good thing we have choices!

Quote:

Originally Posted by mirumu /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm not quite sure what you mean when you say electrostatics lack extension. There are some that do, the SR-003 treble is quite rolled off and the SR-X MK3 is somewhat rolled off in the bass but in my experience they're the exceptions, not the norm. The Omega II has some roll off in the very lowest bass region but this isn't the impression it leaves you with while listening. Personally I've yet to hear any headphone come close to the Sennheiser HE60 in terms of extension, both 20Hz and 20Khz were clear as day.

I think you need to listen to the HD650 (properly amped/sourced)! At least it's bass and treble extension are comparable with the HE90 in the FRGs (it just has the dip in mids at the 8khz mark like all 580 series).

Well it primarily has been the Lambdas that I've heard, so maybe it was another the exception to the rule. I've listened to a couple Sony stats that seemed to do the same thing: roll off in the bass so you didn't get as much bass impact. Great for detail, but not really what my ear was looking for.

 

[edstrelow]

Quote:

Originally Posted by humanflyz /img/forum/go_quote.gif I am puzzled at the statement that electrostats lack extension. In my experience, that is the one thing they don't lack. All the electrostats I've heard so far (SR-404, O2, HE60/90) have had the best extension I've heard in headphones. What they lack, in a general/broad sense, is impact.

I pretty much agree with this. This is what stats do best and where dynamics are weakest. Of course there are different kinds of classical music. The issue for audio reproduction is the complexity of the musical waveforms. If you are reproducing only a few instruments, as in a rock group, many types of phone will work, but when you have a couple of hundred instruments and vocalists, say in an opera, then you need clarity and detail and that is what stats do best.

As regards extension, I agree that good stats will have more and better quality treble than dynamics, simply because they have extremely light diaphragms to move. Bass can be also very extended. I have found that
the Stax lambdas give bass that I can feel inside my body.

As regards "impact" or dynamics, stats are hard to drive and you need to pay considerable attention to power handling to gave maximum dynamics. This is mostly an issue in pop/rock music, where you need the dynamics to get more rhythm, or more bass oomph to make up for the frequently over equalized and screechy treble.

I recommend some tweaks to stat amps to get better power handling, such as better power cords, plugging the amps directly into the wall, as opposed to a power strip. Or just get the biggest amp you can afford.

Sometimes a better source such as a DAC with a separate power supply can give the dynamics needed. Some have suggested using a pre-amp before the headphone amp. Others on this site have gone back to the old transformers, run off larger power amps, in order to get more dynamics.

Not all stats sound alike. I like the 404 and other lambdas for instruments/orchestral and the old Sigmas for opera/choral.

I have several stax sets as well as the Koss ESP950. The later lacks something in clarity, compared to comparable Stax phones, but does allow an upgraded power supply, which can do wonders for dynamics. It is priced below the US prices for Stax and has a lifetime warranty.

 

[TheSloth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by edstrelow /img/forum/go_quote.gif As regards extension, I agree that good stats will have more and better quality treble than dynamics, simply because they have extremely light diaphragms to move.

Take this from the perpective of someone who has a pair of electrostatic loudspeakers, but:

There is little technical merit to that statement without qualification. Firstly, as a rule, very close up electrostatics have terrible waterfall plots (in the very nearfield). I.e. though the electrostatic diaphragm might move overall as one transducer, at a more minute level it moves somewhat chaotically - chaos of that kind is high frequency in nature. I'm not saying that it is necessarily audible and thereby destructive, but it is fundamental to the medium.

Secondly, in general frequencies become more directional the higher they are. Where a dynamic transducer can be placed with nothing between it and the listeners ear, the electrostatic transducer must by design have a stator between it and your ear which the sound has to get through, usually by way of simple holes - as you well know from modding cloth or grilles, the biggest change of these things between the transducer and our ears is to the high frequencies.

If this were a speaker discussion I'd say a whole different set of positives and negatives would be at play on the balance of things, but in headphones there are clear justifications for a dynamic transducer principle for all the reasons one might use to justify an electrostatic transducer if it were a pair of loudspeakers. I'm not arguing for superiority either way, but it's often assumed that de-facto an electrostatic headphone should be better than a dynamic equivalent, and there is no justification for that on purely technical grounds.

Finally, on the topic at hand, to my ears the lambdas are too coloured in the upper midrange (colouration of addition) to give an even response for classical music. I'd say the rest of their FR is actually quite balanced, and sense no lack of bass or treble, but there are some odd things going on between 1 and 2k (that's just by ear - anyone have a graph to confirm or deny?) which ruin it for my ears anyway.

 

[Davesrose]

Quote:

Originally Posted by edstrelow /img/forum/go_quote.gif I pretty much agree with this. This is what stats do best and where dynamics are weakest. Of course there are different kinds of classical music. The issue for audio reproduction is the complexity of the musical waveforms. If you are reproducing only a few instruments, as in a rock group, many types of phone will work, but when you have a couple of hundred instruments and vocalists, say in an opera, then you need clarity and detail and that is what stats do best.

And this is where I have a difference of opinion. It would seem to me that you'd need more detail in solo or small ensembles. For one thing, the setting would be smaller, so frequencies wouldn't be as extended. The midrange gets to be more important if you're upclose to an instrument. One of the reasons why I like the HD580 series over the stats I've heard for symphonies, is it's tonality. It may not be as clear and detailed, but you don't get clear details when you're an audience member in an auditorium. Last weekend I went to a classical guitar concert. Came back and listened to my HD650s....seemed to be pretty accurate in rendering the tones I heard live, and being an audience member.

so that's my opinion, and I must now pry myself away from the computer. Good debate though

 

[mirumu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davesrose /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think you need to listen to the HD650 (properly amped/sourced)! At least it's bass and treble extension are comparable with the HE90 in the FRGs (it just has the dip in mids at the 8khz mark like all 580 series).

That's true but the HD595 looks to be similar to the HD650 as well according the Headroom FRGs even though it is generally considered to have less extension. Certainly to my ears though the HD595 does not extend to the same degree that the HE60 does on either end.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davesrose /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well it primarily has been the Lambdas that I've heard, so maybe it was another the exception to the rule. I've listened to a couple Sony stats that seemed to do the same thing: roll off in the bass so you didn't get as much bass impact. Great for detail, but not really what my ear was looking for.

Yes, lack of bass impact seems to be a common weakness of electrostatics. To at least some degree this often stems from a lack of power to drive them hence why the amplifier is so important in such a system. I wonder though if you are talking entirely about electrostatic headphones or are including electrets in as well. I have no experience with electrets whatsoever but it would not surprise me that a permanent bias diaphragm could have a different dynamic response.

 

[Carl]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mirumu /img/forum/go_quote.gif I have no experience with electrets whatsoever but it would not surprise me that a permanent bias diaphragm could have a different dynamic response.

The polarizing level of most electrets is fairly high, more so than an electrostatic biased in the 230v range. I wouldn't rate them as less dynamic at all.

 

[milkpowder]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davesrose Not hearing the most expensive stats, but in the case of the 404: milkpowder may be finding it more colored in the upper mids, because its lower bass and upper treble is rolled off. Bass is really needed for timbre.

I'm not too sure the bass frequencies would necessarily affect the colouring of the mids since I find the colouration present even for solo violin works. The lowest frequency that a violin can produce is just under 200Hz on the G string. This is still within lower-midrange/upper bass, where the Lambda has no roll-off or deficiency (as far as I can hear). I do however believe that tonal balance has a massive effect on sound signature, but not necessarily explain this specific scenario.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSloth /img/forum/go_quote.gif Finally, on the topic at hand, to my ears the lambdas are too coloured in the upper midrange (colouration of addition) to give an even response for classical music. I'd say the rest of their FR is actually quite balanced, and sense no lack of bass or treble, but there are some odd things going on between 1 and 2k (that's just by ear - anyone have a graph to confirm or deny?) which ruin it for my ears anyway.

I also think the Lambdas are coloured, but not to the point where it gets annoying. Do you have any idea why the upper midrange would be coloured from a technical standpoint?

 

[Konig]

it depends. most classical didnt work for me because stax seem to stress the specific placing of the instruments rather than the whole coherent performance. Any sennheiser headphone (hd600 + hd650) has managed to immerse me in the performance. What stax has an edge is in the individual solo performance, where you can easily hear the reproduction of violin wood timbre and steinway piano notes. Sennheiser make those individual instruments sound like any instrument you can fetch off during boxing day sales.

so the trick for me will be to have a dynamic amp. listen to the whole performance with senn and swtich to stax during the solo part.

 

[Carl]

Quote:

Originally Posted by milkpowder /img/forum/go_quote.gif I also think the Lambdas are coloured, but not to the point where it gets annoying. Do you have any idea why the upper midrange would be coloured from a technical standpoint?

Stax makes them more for monitoring than music listening, so I guess they consider imaging and resolution as more important than a purely accurate tonality.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig /img/forum/go_quote.gif it depends. most classical didnt work for me because stax seem to stress the specific placing of the instruments rather than the whole coherent performance.

Not an issue if you use a virtualizer or crossfeed, though. Thinks are perfectly holistic for me.

 

[milkpowder]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig /img/forum/go_quote.gif it depends. most classical didnt work for me because stax seem to stress the specific placing of the instruments rather than the whole coherent performance. Any sennheiser headphone (hd600 + hd650) has managed to immerse me in the performance. What stax has an edge is in the individual solo performance, where you can easily hear the reproduction of violin wood timbre and steinway piano notes. Sennheiser make those individual instruments sound like any instrument you can fetch off during boxing day sales. so the trick for me will be to have a dynamic amp. listen to the whole performance with senn and swtich to stax during the solo part.

Even with your incredible electrostatic rig, classical ensemble (ie not solo) still sounds incoherent? As I said before, everyone should have an electrostatic and dynamic rig. I need to start saving up for an Meier Corda Opera or Headroom Desktop w/Home modules...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl Stax makes them more for monitoring than music listening, so I guess they consider imaging and resolution as more important than a purely accurate tonality.

I'd imagine tonality is also very important for monitoring... It's not like they completely screwed up the timbre; it's just not 100% accurate. Personally, I don't really mind... I wonder if a tube buffer or different warmer source will alleviate it