[Dusty Chalk]

Quote:

Originally posted by MacDEF P.S. Audio&Me, the V6 don't have bloated bass -- they really do have fairly tight, and very extended bass. The Etys are the only headphones I've heard that have bass as extended/flat as the V6. Compared to the V6, the HD600 do roll off. Compared to most other headphones on the market, they don't Unfortunately, all the V6 really have is that impressive bass. Their treble and midrange are smoked by most other "good" headphones.

Okay, here's my pet peeve -- people stating their opinions...erm...hearing perspectives in the absolute as opposed to the relative. I completely agree with the school that says that the V6's sounds...herm, how do I state this as non-antagonistically as possible...above average in the bass. And the Senn HD600's as below average. I still think the Beyer DT770 beat them both in terms of being "just right". To my ears.

 

[Audio-Me]

Senn HD600 below average bass? That's absurd.

 

[MacDEF]

No kidding

"Below average?" In terms of all the cans I've heard, the HD600 are CLEARLY above average. In fact, of all the cans I've ever heard, only the V6 and some of the Beyers have more extended/flat bass.

You rarely hear people complain that the HD600 have too little bass -- most people who *do* criticize their bass say they have too much.

In fact, most of the people who have actually heard the DT770 (I haven't) have also claimed them to have "a lot" of bass.

But I heard the V6 bass as being pretty flat; a lot of studio people also feel they are very flat in the bass, as well. I tend to believe them. I've also seen graphs of the V6/7506, which show them to be very flat, especially compared to other cans.

 

[Joe Bloggs]

Compared to my other headphones--EX70 and Aiwa HP-X225--the Senn 580 has below average bass

Quote:

I've also seen graphs of the V6/7506

Where? Where? *Drools and agitates like a rabid dog* Except in the V6/7506/SR80 comparison that is

 

[fredpb]

Anyway.

I scream about the HD600's because I do like them. I wanted them to be perfect. I have never heard any other headphone like them. Now that I have a "good" amp for them, and the Clou Red's, I can listen on my recliner, drooling with a big smile on my face, and listen to my music.

Now the problem is my jealous bird. See Avatar. She has now discovered I am paying attention to the headphones and not her.
The devious little thing she is, she goes to the top of my head and picks at the headband for attention. Sometimes the white cables of the Clou. Grrrr. When I pick up my headphones she jumps to my ears, bites them, and says "hello" repeatedly.
She does not want me to pay attention to the headphones. I paid attention to the tv remove, and she ate the buttons off.
Siighhhh..kids...even feathered ones!

 

[Audio-Me]

Joe - you are comparing the Sennheiser HD580s (an open design headphone) bass characteristics to two completely different types of cans, closed and canal phones. Both are isolated, thus create a dry sound (sometimes resonant) and don't have to move as much air. This is where a "seal" comes into play. Bass might seem to be punchier on closed headphones simply due to the nature of them. But I think that this is a matter of personal perception...

freddy - lol! Take her to a bird trainer.

 

[Hirsch]

Quote:

Originally posted by DustyChalk And the Senn HD600's as below average

600's bass below average??

When's the last time you rolled tubes in the RKV?

Slightly more seriously, I've been rolling tubes in the ZOTL, and am getting much closer to the "right" ones. The ZOTL with Sylvania 6SN7 GTB's can take the 600 very deep with very tight definition.

 

[Dusty Chalk]

I knew I was going to get jumped all over for that statement, but my point was, we each hear things differently. That doesn't make my points any less valid than any of yours, just because it's a less popular one.

And just to qualify -- I did not mean in terms of extension, I only meant in terms of overall amplitude.

And I also did not mean by much. We're getting down to the nitty gritty here. I think the Beyer DT770's, the Senn HD600's, and the Sony MDRV6/7506's all have some pretty damn fine bass extension, and, depending how you like them, response. The main reason I hate the Sony's -- for pleasurable listening, not for monitoring -- so much is because of their forwardness. I could definitely live with the slightly exaggerated bass, as it's still pretty tight, and I like bass anyway.

 

[Dusty Chalk]

Quote:

Originally posted by Hirsch 600's bass below average?? When's the last time you rolled tubes in the RKV?

Um, first of all, your point is not valid, since this comparison was all done on the same amps (I compared RKV against RKV and MF against MF).

Secondly, there isn't as much tube-rolling going on with the RKV, since the stock tubes are so good, and since replacements are so hard to find. Remind me to tell you the story of what happened to those four quads of PCL805's that I bought from templeboy. Alright, never mind, I'll tell you now -- they got crunched. And that was one of my best "finds". The only other tubes I've found for them were some Mullards, and they...kinda sucked (totally distort with any bass). Fun for blues and Buzzcocks and other electric guitar based music, but sucked for anything else.

 

[MacDEF]

Quote:

Originally posted by DustyChalk That doesn't make my points any less valid than any of yours, just because it's a less popular one.

I didn't mean that it was

But *do* think it's fair to disagree with you about the HD600 being "below average" in bass response. That's something we can actually measure, right? (Bass extension and flatness, that is.) I think that if you take all the "good" headphones (the models most here would consider to be the better headphones available) you wouldn't find the HD600 in the "below average" group. That's all I was saying.

Quote:

And I also did not mean by much. We're getting down to the nitty gritty here. I think the Beyer DT770's, the Senn HD600's, and the Sony MDRV6/7506's all have some pretty damn fine bass extension, and, depending how you like them, response.

Good point.

 

[Hirsch]

Quote:

Originally posted by DustyChalk Um, first of all, your point is not valid, since this comparison was all done on the same amps (I compared RKV against RKV and MF against MF).

What I was trying to say in my indirect way, was that I was getting major differences at the low end while tube rolling the ZOTL.

Mine came used with JAN Philips tubes, which are every bit as good in the ZOTL as they are in the X-Can...not good at all, IMO. I've got a pair of Raytheon 12AT7's and a pair of Sylvania 6SN7GTB's that do pretty good. I've also got a pair of China Red Base 6SN7's from Upscale Audio...the verdict is still out on those.

I just won a pair of Seiman's 12AT7s on ebay to compare to the Raytheons. May the best tube win.

I was talking to a friend of mine whose father was a Ham radio operator. She's got a box of tubes in the basement, and knows at least three other people who have large collections of tubes..from radio use, so the prices may even be rational. Anything special you want me to be looking for in my journey through glass bottles?

 

[Dusty Chalk]

Quote:

Originally posted by MacDEF I didn't mean that it was But *do* think it's fair to disagree with you about the HD600 being "below average" in bass response. That's something we can actually measure, right? (Bass extension and flatness, that is.)

No, that's exactly what I'm taking difference to. I mean, maybe it's because people's ears are shaped differently, and their heads cause the headphones to lay on their head differently...I don't know, all I know is that that's the way I hear them.

Try doing some of those things that are mentioned on Jan's site and elsewhere here -- moving the headphones around, tilting them, putting your hands over the backs, pressing them closer to your head, etc. Notice what that does to the bass response. I am thinking that that's how different people hear different headphones.

You know, if I called the Sony's boomy, I would have to take that back -- it's not that the bass drags out, or is muddy, it's just slightly elevated to my ears. Same thing with the Senn's. It's not so much that they're "lite" on an absolute scale, they're just "lite" to me compared with what I think of as "real" ("absolute", "flat frequency response", etc.).

I'll tell you what, I'll re-run my tests and post some results. Either way (if my opinion has changed from what my memory is telling me or otherwise). Actually, I may wait until I get my DT770/250's.

 

[Dusty Chalk]

Quote:

Originally posted by Hirsch What I was trying to say in my indirect way, was that I was getting major differences at the low end while tube rolling the ZOTL.

No, I understood what you were saying. My point was that ... wouldn't it affect both sets of headphones the same way? By running them through the same amp, you kind of take the amp out of the picture. Quote:

I was talking to a friend of mine whose father was a Ham radio operator. She's got a box of tubes in the basement, and knows at least three other people who have large collections of tubes..from radio use, so the prices may even be rational. Anything special you want me to be looking for in my journey through glass bottles?

YES YES YES YES YES. PLEASE [size=small]PLEASE[/size] [size=medium]PLEASE[/size] PCL805's or PCL85's or 18GV8 (or maybe they're 18VG8's, I forget). These are usually found in television type usages, but I would still appreciate you looking. Thanks! I'm also always on the lookout for 12AX7's and EL84's, and once I get those Radii Audio amps, I'm going to want 6DJ8's. I'm selling my X-CAN/X-PSU combo, so probably don't need any more 6922 types (other than the 6DJ8's). Or is it the other way around. Dagnabit, I keep forgetting...

BTW, MacDEF and Hirsch and others -- I am not trying to say that everyone else is wrong, I am not trying to say that mine is the only correct way of hearing things. I'm just piping in with my "vote". So please don't take this the same way as ...say... Mike Walker, stating his opinion?

 

[Audio-Me]

Well if you say that they sound "lite to you. I'll have to be honest, I think that most of the sound coming out of headphones or speakers sounds pretty damn fake to me compared to the real sound... Don't give me crap about the ultra high end stuff, cause they sound fake to me too. This is a straight forward analytical opinion, has nothing to do with sound enjoyment.

 

[Hirsch]

Quote:

Originally posted by DustyChalk No, I understood what you were saying. My point was that ... wouldn't it affect both sets of headphones the same way? By running them through the same amp, you kind of take the amp out of the picture.

Disclaimer: I'm not trying to be dogmatic either, and if my writing comes across as such I apologize. I'm strictly posting in the spirit of friendly debate, and hope I am not giving the impresssion that someone has to be right and someone has to be wrong. I'm just making the best case I can. Now back to our argument...

Maybe. However, if that were so, then an amp that got the bass right on the Senn would overpower the low end of a Beyer or Sony, yes? In which case we wouldn't call the Senn "light", we would call the others "bloated".

Nor is it clear that keeping the amp constant takes it out of the picture. Tube amps in particular are very sensitive to the impedence of the load. So, unless the cans were similar in impedence, it would be unfair to characterize them without going through a whole range of amps...

I do believe that it is possible to characterize the sound of the can However, IMO it should be done on the basis of the best sound possible out of the can (be it the best amp for its use, the best interconnect, or the best position on the head). That tells us what is possible...the limit of performance if you will. Some systems will get close to that limit, others will fall very short of it.

However, if it is possible to get strong tight bass out of a can, what do we say when the majority of available systems can't do it (this argument is not limited to cans, but applies to any component)? Do we assume that its sonic characteristics are the most common denominator (people's expectations will be met and they will be happy with their purchase and life will go on), or do we take as its sonic characteristics its best case (many people's expectations will usually fall short, and they'll wonder what people see in the POS junk we're recommending)?

My personal view is to go for the best. When I write about a component, it is what I believe about that component at that point in time. It is not meant to be an absolute, as any opinion can only be based on experience up to that point. Who knows, tomorrow I may hear a new component, or try a new tube that changes what I thought I knew about how recorded music should sound (this has happened to me twice in the short period I've had the ZOTL. That amp is just plain amazing).

Oh well, I've meandered enough, lost track of the original debate, and am way too lazy to go back and edit this post. What was the original point I was trying to make?

Oh yeah, the HD-600 has great bass!