Gustard U12 USB Interface 8 Core XMOS chip
Jan 15, 2016 at 1:45 PM Post #3,346 of 3,700
   
So the sound is really something. I do not understand the Hi Res DxD ?   you mean that the redbook sounds like HiRes DSD ?
Regarding the converter i was thinking to use a AES connection because it is usually quite musical. 
But if it sounds good it must be really good indeed.
Thanks a lot again,  gino 


That is the old version - the new one looks like this:


DxD refers to a new PCM recording standard called 'Digital eXtreme Definition' - 24bit 352K sampling.
 
Great whitepaper on DxD vs DSD; http://www.merging.com/uploads/assets/Merging_pdfs/dxd_Resolution_v3.5.pdf
 
Jan 15, 2016 at 1:54 PM Post #3,347 of 3,700
 
That is the old version - the new one looks like this:


DxD refers to a new PCM recording standard called 'Digital eXtreme Definition' - 24bit 352K sampling.
 
Great whitepaper on DxD vs DSD; http://www.merging.com/uploads/assets/Merging_pdfs/dxd_Resolution_v3.5.pdf

 
Thanks for the interesting information.
But i have only cds in my collection ... my main goal is to get a decent performance from redbook format. 
I am aware that i cannot pretend top performance ... that it will be a compromise.
I am only looking for a musical experience.
I like the sound when it is relaxed but dynamic and with detail. 
regards,   gino 
 
Jan 15, 2016 at 2:02 PM Post #3,348 of 3,700
Re the Gustard U12, I was finally able to realise DSD256 in Foobar using the Thesycon demo driver. DSD256 shows on both the U12 and the X20 (X20 connected using IIS HDMI cable). The DSD256 sound is an improvement on DSD128 and justifies the purchase of the U12 to front the X20.
 
I then downloaded Chodi's Thesycon 2.23 XMOS driver http://www.speedyshare.com/RXMDH/Luckit-2.23-for-Gustard-U12.rar
And successfully installed on Windows 10 64bit using the 'unsigned driver' advanced setting mode. I have set the WaveIO buffer to 'extra safe'.
 
Foorbar and Jriver (MC20) both upsample to 256bit. However, when I play a 24bit/192khz file in Jriver it plays DSD256; if I play the same piece in Foobar it outputs PCM192 and loses much of the dynamics. When I play 44.1Khz files in Foobar they upsample to DSD128 as expected. Why does the output 'drop' to PCM in Foobar but not JRiver? Could it be my HDMI cable quality?
 
Jan 15, 2016 at 4:05 PM Post #3,349 of 3,700
And one thing i found yesterday it that it is quite significant an improvement to plug the computer through some sort of digital filter so that it does not contaminate the rest of the chain. All my audio components are connected through a basic power bar with some paasive filtering not using any discrete component, so it does not affect dynamics. The computer is plugged to an APC h15 on the digital filter bank.

 
This sounds like a good way to go.
 
Jan 15, 2016 at 4:10 PM Post #3,350 of 3,700
   
Thanks for the interesting information.
But i have only cds in my collection ... my main goal is to get a decent performance from redbook format. 
I am aware that i cannot pretend top performance ... that it will be a compromise.
I am only looking for a musical experience.
I like the sound when it is relaxed but dynamic and with detail. 
regards,   gino 


You'd be surprised at how good those redbook files can sound
 
Jan 15, 2016 at 4:20 PM Post #3,351 of 3,700
And one thing i found yesterday it that it is quite significant an improvement to plug the computer through some sort of digital filter so that it does not contaminate the rest of the chain. All my audio components are connected through a basic power bar with some paasive filtering not using any discrete component, so it does not affect dynamics. The computer is plugged to an APC h15 on the digital filter bank.


Do you know what discrete components means?  I think you mean 'active'.  The APCh15 is a AC filter - not a 'digital' filter.  Discrete components have no effect on dynamics if they are designed for high current capacity.  They PB4X4Pro can handle 1800Watts - should be good for DXIO.
wink_face.gif

 
Kinda hate to break the news to you - but your APC h15 is loaded with discrete components (non-IC).


You'll want to replace those metal oxide varistors (MOVs) every few years, as they deteriorate with time (actually line surges).
 
Jan 15, 2016 at 5:49 PM Post #3,352 of 3,700
Do you know what discrete components means?  I think you mean 'active'.  The APCh15 is a AC filter - not a 'digital' filter.  Discrete components have no effect on dynamics if they are designed for high current capacity.  They PB4X4Pro can handle 1800Watts - should be good for DXIO. :wink_face:

Kinda hate to break the news to you - but your APC h15 is loaded with discrete components (non-IC).




You'll want to replace those metal oxide varistors (MOVs) every few years, as they deteriorate with time (actually line surges).


The apc h15 has discrete components, i know. I have a diploma in ee. And by digital filter, i mean an ac filter tuned for the purpose of feeding digital components. That filter helps preventing the noise of the computer from getting in the DAC and other audio components.

I have another power distributor made by qls hifi, to which i plug all my audio components. That power distributor has no discrete component. It has no effect on dynamics and makes the sound more relaxed. It is a good distributor.

Both power distibutor are plugged to the same outlet on the wall, which is a Maestro.
 
Jan 15, 2016 at 6:56 PM Post #3,353 of 3,700
The apc h15 has discrete components, i know. I have a diploma in ee. And by digital filter, i mean an ac filter tuned for the purpose of feeding digital components. That filter helps preventing the noise of the computer from getting in the DAC and other audio components.

I have another power distributor made by qls hifi, to which i plug all my audio components. That power distributor has no discrete component. It has no effect on dynamics and makes the sound more relaxed. It is a good distributor.

Both power distibutor are plugged to the same outlet on the wall, which is a Maestro.



ohhhh yea!!!! The Maestro outlet is something special! The best outlet imho. For sure!
I have tried a lot of outlets!!! I'm using the teslaplex now and don't care for it too much, had a r1, also have a gaofei rhodium plated red copper I really like (translucent blue)
A vanguard gold plated cryo'd copper, a few music hospital grade outlets and some psaudio outlets too.

I would happily trade my teslaplex for a maestro. It would suit my system more. The teslaplex is better for tube gear, otherwise it's too revealing and bright sounding for most solid state gear. Just my opinion.
 
Jan 15, 2016 at 7:16 PM Post #3,354 of 3,700
as I am playing with Dual PC setup, I finally manage to finetune jplay to work with DXIO. the dual PC added the final touch to music in place.
 
I was enjoying the music all along the way. I have discovered details that was never heard, and even thought that they were some flaw in my system. it was actually recording faults.
 
on good recording, I can crank the music to earth shaking volume and it sounds resolved.
 
next plan is to have the PC, power supply and DXIO all house in one box, if I am happy with it. 
 
Jan 15, 2016 at 7:21 PM Post #3,356 of 3,700
ohhhh yea!!!! The Maestro outlet is something special! The best outlet imho. For sure!
I have tried a lot of outlets!!! I'm using the teslaplex now and don't care for it too much, had a r1, also have a gaofei rhodium plated red copper I really like (translucent blue)
A vanguard gold plated cryo'd copper, a few music hospital grade outlets and some psaudio outlets too.

I would happily trade my teslaplex for a maestro. It would suit my system more. The teslaplex is better for tube gear, otherwise it's too revealing and bright sounding for most solid state gear. Just my opinion.


3-4 years ago, maybe more, I ran a search on power outlets. The Maestro seemed to be one to beat. I have been very happy with this purchase. The only audiophile outlet i ever tried but a clear improvement especially after 3-4 days of burning.

I also got on the quest for the best fuse at the same time. The sr-20 is the best i have tried (a notch better than the hifi-tuning supreme). But today, my gears have no fuse, or at least i believe audio-gd uses no fuse. The same for the soft switching smps in my homemade class d power amp. So i got rid of that expense.
 
Jan 15, 2016 at 7:33 PM Post #3,357 of 3,700
  as I am playing with Dual PC setup, I finally manage to finetune jplay to work with DXIO. the dual PC added the final touch to music in place.
 
I was enjoying the music all along the way. I have discovered details that was never heard, and even thought that they were some flaw in my system. it was actually recording faults.
 
on good recording, I can crank the music to earth shaking volume and it sounds resolved.
 
next plan is to have the PC, power supply and DXIO all house in one box, if I am happy with it. 


Nice!
 
Jan 15, 2016 at 7:49 PM Post #3,358 of 3,700
The apc h15 has discrete components, i know. I have a diploma in ee. And by digital filter, i mean an ac filter tuned for the purpose of feeding digital components. That filter helps preventing the noise of the computer from getting in the DAC and other audio components.

I have another power distributor made by qls hifi, to which i plug all my audio components. That power distributor has no discrete component. It has no effect on dynamics and makes the sound more relaxed. It is a good distributor.

Both power distributor are plugged to the same outlet on the wall, which is a Maestro.

So you just have a power block with no AC filtering at all.  Hmmm...  Might want to try a differential mode AC line filter. 
 
Read another EE John Swenson on USB PHY processing packet noise - you'll want your DDC on an AC isolation device.  If you have a CD spinner esp you'll want that on separate AC isolated (DC servos are notorious for high freq noise) - It's not just PCs that pollute the AC household line.  Any SMPS (Switching Power Supply), feeds grunge back into the household AC line.  How many of those do you have plugged in around the house?  In fact, any digital audio device can be greatly effected by common AC line noise or household AC line noise (like DAC chips).  Own a refrigerator?  It has a powerful AC motor - when it cycles it adds grunge to your line, Washer/Dryer?  Forced air heater - or Air Conditioner? Neighbors own a vacuum cleaner?  Power saw?  How about EMI/RFI - air traffic near by?  How about some ham radio operators with 30 ft antennae in the vicinity?
 
Remember that SI consists of rise/fall time, noise, and jitter. The jitter in the SIGNAL is determined by the transmitter PHY, which can be significantly influenced by the clock IT gets and the noise on its PG planes. USUALLY noise is low on the signal as it exits the PHY. The cable (and connectors) cause an increase in raise/fall times, added noise (EMI and crosstalk from power and ground wires) and decreased amplitude of the signal. Any decent receiver will have an automatic gain control (AGC) which compensates for this effect, but that raises the noise on the signal, so I'm lumping the amplitude decrease into noise. The cable by itself rarely adds jitter to the signal, BUT the increased rise/fall times and extra noise cause the received data to have increased jitter in the PHY. This is one of the big issues that all that extra processing is designed to deal with.
When that XMOS chip is dealing with data from the host it is generating its own noise on the PG planes, part of the noise will be from the PHY and part from the MAC. The PHY part can change due to SI of the USB signal, the rest cannot, it stays the same. If separate ground planes and separate power supplies are not used, that noise can directly affect the DAC chip(s) and the master clock oscillator. As was posted from a previous post of mine, even if separate supplies and planes are used with isolation between them, the effects of this noise still winds up at the DAC chip and clock.

The part of this noise not from the PHY is always there, it doesn't matter what your cable is, what USB card you have, whether you have a REGEN etc, it's still there. All that stuff is keeping the PHY part from ADDING extra noise that makes things worse. 

The technically correct solution is to figure out how to prevent this noise from crossing the barrier and getting into the DAC chip and clock, unfortunately this is really tough and nobody has yet to completely figured out how to do this. Thus every DAC ever built will have some level of susceptibility to external influences, some more some less. 

By the way, just because a DAC is not very sensitive to external influences does not mean it sounds really good, there are lots of ways to decrease the sensitivity that muck up the sound. The trick is decrease the sensitivity AND do it in such a way that doesn't decrease SQ. 

So everybody that is tweaking their computers, using different cables, a REGEN etc are all still hearing the effects of the non-PHY noise. If we can figure out how to get rid of THAT, WOW, you won't know what hit you. 

John S.

 

In my old house I had a separate AC line put in - with a separate ground pole.  What a difference that made - even with a Nordost Thor and A series of Richard Gray Pro400's.
 
Jan 15, 2016 at 8:44 PM Post #3,359 of 3,700
So you just have a power block with no AC filtering at all.  Hmmm...  Might want to try a differential mode AC line filter. 

Read another EE John Swenson on USB PHY processing packet noise - you'll want your DDC on an AC isolation device.  If you have a CD spinner esp you'll want that on separate AC isolated (DC servos are notorious for high freq noise) - It's not just PCs that pollute the AC household line.  Any SMPS (Switching Power Supply), feeds grunge back into the household AC line.  How many of those do you have plugged in around the house?  In fact, any digital audio device can be greatly effected by common AC line noise or household AC line noise (like DAC chips).  Own a refrigerator?  It has a powerful AC motor - when it cycles it adds grunge to your line, Washer/Dryer?  Forced air heater - or Air Conditioner? Neighbors own a vacuum cleaner?  Power saw?  How about EMI/RFI - air traffic near by?  How about some ham radio operators with 30 ft antennae in the vicinity?

In my old house I had a separate AC line put in - with a separate ground pole.  What a difference that made - even with a Nordost Thor and A series of Richard Gray Pro400's.


I could certainly do more on the isolation part. I have tried the breeze connected to the APC, i prefer the sound on the non Isolated distributor. One thing is for sure, the sound quality changes quite a bit depending on the day of the week in my place. But not so much since i have acquired the wyrd and the jitterbugs. On a good day, i much prefer the sound without filtering. Those filters most often affect the dynamics.

As for my smps fed power amp, it is soft-switched. So it it far less noisy than you would expect. My philosophy is very simple, i prefer to isolate every device on the same circuit than to isolate my audio component, which have better supplies and do less contamination to the ac line. I believe a good linear psu prevents noise on the ac line.


As for the qls hifi, it does a bit of filtering, although there is no isolation in the strict sense of the term. I also rely on the power cords which provide also some filtering. Same for the Maestro. And then i pray the Lord for good sound. :grinning:
 
Jan 15, 2016 at 10:23 PM Post #3,360 of 3,700
I could certainly do more on the isolation part. I have tried the breeze connected to the APC, i prefer the sound on the non Isolated distributor. One thing is for sure, the sound quality changes quite a bit depending on the day of the week in my place. But not so much since i have acquired the wyrd and the jitterbugs. On a good day, i much prefer the sound without filtering. Those filters most often affect the dynamics.

As for my smps fed power amp, it is soft-switched. So it it far less noisy than you would expect. My philosophy is very simple, i prefer to isolate every device on the same circuit than to isolate my audio component, which have better supplies and do less contamination to the ac line. I believe a good linear psu prevents noise on the ac line.


As for the qls hifi, it does a bit of filtering, although there is no isolation in the strict sense of the term. I also rely on the power cords which provide also some filtering. Same for the Maestro. And then i pray the Lord for good sound. :grinning:


Well I do run my amps straight to the Teslaplexs - no filtering.  But I found the whole digital chain is helped by separate AC common mode and differential mode isolation.  Just like my phono pre-amp - the noise  digital devices create is amplified many times by the pre-amp and amp stages, so minimizing this very low level source noise is quite important.   Unlike a Class A amp drawing 400-500 Watts with 5 amps peak - or even a class A tube pre-amp - my digital devices, DAC included, draw minimal power - so any possible dynamic compression by current limiting is near impossible.  I certainly don't hear any - but what I do hear is a blacker background due to a much lower floor noise.  This lower floor noise has allowed the more subtle detail to emerge - that detail uncovers the extremely low level ambient clues that go into creating a realistic holographic presentation.  Think 3d point sources radiating out in a three dimensional space as real musicians do.  Versus flattish staggered cardboard cutouts arranged in the  sound field.  With the dark black noise floor - the subtle side and back wave musical reflections are uncovered - to startling effect.
 
So the bottom line is to achieve the lowest floor noise possible.  This at the same time lowers the digital receivers AGC work - minimizing packet processing induced jitter and time domain echos or reverberation.  Another benefit of course with linear power supplies is the elimination of switching distortion - why I love Class A biased solid state MOSFETs - but this applies to AC to DC power supplies as well.
 
One area that goes a long way to lowering floor noise - and an area I have spend much time and effort on is vibration control.  Really haven't brought it up until now.  But will address in greater detail down the road.  Every piece of electronic gear (not just PC's with moving parts), generate micro-vibrations - transformers are the worst.  These vibrations cause modulation effects with other electronic components inside your gear.  These vibrations can shown up as induced heat or magnetic effects.  If you can stabilize then bleed off these vibrations you go along way to optimizing your equipments operation.  Minimizing heat and other artifacts generated by these vibrations.  Much has been written about this - and much research - in particular by the USN in nuclear subs and passive sonar detection systems.
 
I have tried all kind of vibration control devices and have a host of favorites.  Here is a little trick I have found useful.  Buy some lead shot at Walmart and load some in large plastic containers - place on top of your gear with quality vibration dissipation devices underneath.  You would be amazed at the greater clarity and focus that will be produced.
 
http://www.earsc.com/HOME/engineering/TechnicalWhitePapers/UnderstandingDamping/index.asp?SID=62
 
Vibration Isolation
This method reduces the transmission of vibrational energy from one system to another. Common vibration isolators are steel springs, rubber pads or bellows. These devices are available in many shapes and are capable of isolating masses weighing from a few pounds to thousands of pounds.​
An automobile suspension is a good example of damped isolation. Shock absorbers dissipate energy by pumping a fluid through orifices that offer a predetermined resistance to high-velocity flow. Many isolation systems use elastomeric materials to provide both the spring force and damping. Some rubbers are capable of achieving useful damping at certain frequencies, although at low frequencies most exhibit loss factors less than 0.2, or roughly 10 percent of critical damping. At resonance, when a system dissipates the same amount of energy per radian as it stores, it is said to be critically damped. Loss factor is equal to the percentage of critical damping divided by 50.​
underdamp6.gif

One way to compare the behavior of various isolators is to measure their transmissibility. Typical transmissibility curves, as shown in Figure 6, compare the vibrational acceleration response of materials used in isolation applications. As the damping in a material increases, the system amplification response can be minimized at or near the natural frequency. This can be especially beneficial in applications such as stepper motors, which must run through a variety of frequencies, or those applications that frequently go through a startup or slowdown as part of the operation cycle. In applications with little or no damping, amplification can reach as high as 23 dB, which would be a magnification factor of 14.2.​
Uncontrolled resonant motion in a device’s isolation mounts can have results ranging from acceptable to catastrophic, depending on the operational properties of the components involved. Undamped mounts have internal resonances that conduct considerable high-frequency vibrational energy from the machine to the support. T0he large forces developed at and near resonance can easily damage internal components or even tear a device from its mounting.​
Conclusion
The bottom line in noise and vibration control, as in virtually all other engineering efforts, is cost-effectiveness, which translates into achieving workable, inexpensive solutions to complex problems. Maximum advantages of reducing noise and vibration at the source can be realized by careful planning, thoughtful design, and proper choice of materials and structures specifically engineered for the task.​
This technological state of the art in damping materials and systems is such that it is possible to design products that operate more quietly, with less vibration and greater precision, without being necessarily more expensive or difficult to build.​
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