[Edwood]

Quote:

Originally Posted by agile_one Just tried mine, and ditto. Actually the click (you have to really listen for it) happened when going from 86 to 86.5 (86 with decimal point) at LO gain, and from 96 to 96.5 at HI gain.

Yeah, I've noticed the decimal point signifying 0.5 steps. At first I was wondering why it took two "notches" to raise the volume at higher levels.

The clicking doesn't bother me, funny thing is that I'll bet they chose to have HI gain mode (switching resistors?) kick at higher volumes rather than simply two levels of gain like the 901.

This would mean lower volumes will have less distortion.


Quote:

If I were listening through headphones OR speakers (not likely, those are insanely high levels), I would never notice it. Good catch, Ed. If Michael G. is listening in, maybe he will shed some light on what is going on.

Remember, I have 6dBL of attenuation, due to EQ in Foobar, so my computer's output volume is less.

Unless there some insanely low impedance speakers or hyper sensitive headphones, it takes quite a while to hear anything when cranking the volume up from zero.

-Ed

 

[mbgrace]

Hi Guys,
The clicking sound you are hearing is the high gain relay activating. The digitally controlled attenuator has a 95.5 dB attenuation range. This means that if we start the volume setting at "00" we will be at unity gain on the attenuator at "95." on the volume display. Rotating the volume knob one click clockwise from here will cause the output amplifier gain to increase 10dB (that is the relay click you are hearing) and the attenuator will decrease simultaneously by 9.5 dB and the net increase will be .5dB. From here the volume can be increased further as the m902 goes into positive gain territory.
In high gain mode the whole scale is simply shifted up 10dB so the relay will switch at 85.5dB ...If i remember correctly... I'm at home without a m902 to check this on

I know that it can seem a little inconvenient to have to ramp the volume up a long way before you hear the sound at optimal level but remember that the very wide range of this volume control is what makes it work well on super sensitive phones as well as "ear speakers" like the K1000s.
I have some Shure E5s at the shop and I will sometimes listen in the "20s". I can actually hear music all the way down to the lowest volume setting with these phones!
As far as the loss of settings at power down is concerned, I'll check with Jamie (our ace firmware guy) in the morning....
Happy listening,
Michael

 

[Edwood]

Thanks for the answers.

I like the gain increase method. Less noise and distortion.

Man, I'm listening to music on the m902 right now. I'm having that "listening to my old music for the first time again" moment.

Of course, the 100 degree fever I have right now might be coloring my listening experience.

-Ed

 

[agile_one]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DukeTogo Looking forward to the sound impressions. Some minor things that bug me though: 1. that screw right smack in the middle of the faceplate... what's up with that?... it looks like a regular old slot-screwdriver screw. Looks very out of place on an almost $2000 headphone amp. Apparently these screws are also used on the sides of the unit, which isn't so bad. A cross/hex or custom screw-head would have looked better I think. But the fact that it's right in the middle of the faceplate... it's sort of annoying.

I noticed that too. From peeking under the hood, I believe that screw holds a small pcb that services the front panel switches and controls. A necessary cosmetic evil that I am more than willing to live with, being a function over form guy, anyhow.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DukeTogo 2. On many of the pics of the m902 that I have seen, the screws (or whatever) on the metal surrounds that are around the headphone jacks, have the screws at 10 o'clock and 4 o'clock on both jacks. But Edwood's unit has the screws in different positions (almost 12 and 6, and 10 and 4)... maybe that's because he took his apart. It's absolutely trivial, but if they don't at least come in the same position, that would bug me... this would fall under the "attention to detail" that was raved about with respect to some other thing earlier. Not sure how those pieces connect to the chassis or the headphone jack behind them mind you, maybe you can just twist them round.

Mine are exactly alike:

Ed will have to confirm, but I think your speculation that he removed and replaced one of his accounts for how his look.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DukeTogo 3. I'm stunned that the unit loses all settings when you unplug it. That is really disappointing, maybe if someone is talking to Grace or Michael, you can bring that up. My plan was to take my DAC/amp back and forth pretty much every day. Mind you not sure how many settings I'd really care about if they were lost, but I think that's one of those details that you just expect on a piece that costs this much.

In actual use, this is just a minor inconvenience. The settings are easy to get to and change, and I find I don't often have them the same anyway. The important one for me, the ability to set and remember separate volume levels for phones and line out, is always there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DukeTogo I think someone said the m902 looks better in person, and the m901 photographs better... I sure hope so, because in those pics the m901 really kicks the m902's ass. At least with respect to front-on view of the faceplate. The m901 looks just that much more classier, while the m902 looks more technical.

Keeping the same form factor as the 901, but adding so many features does make the 902 busier looking from the front. Ultimately, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so no one can really tell someone else it's beautiful - one either thinks so or doesn't. I think the 902 looks terrific.

 

[gradofan]

Wipe off the drool! Man, I want the 902!!!

 

[Edwood]

Quote:

Ed will have to confirm, but I think your speculation that he removed and replaced one of his accounts for how his look.

Nope. Didn't touch them. That's how they were when I got it.

Yesh, it's been bugging me. I've been contemplating removing one and putting it back on to match. But I don't know where to get that tool. I have a soft jawed "robogrip" pliers, but they are too big to grasp that little "round nut".

-Ed

 

[mbgrace]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edwood Nope. Didn't touch them. That's how they were when I got it. Yesh, it's been bugging me. I've been contemplating removing one and putting it back on to match. But I don't know where to get that tool. I have a soft jawed "robogrip" pliers, but they are too big to grasp that little "round nut". -Ed

If the headphone mounting nuts on both jacks wind up in the same orientation is is pure coincidence. The switchcraft jacks are manufactured by pressing the stainless steel bushing into the jack body. The bushing is a round part and has no specific keying to the jack body. Hence, the orientation of the beginning of the threads will be random on each jack. This will cause the nut to tighten in a random orientation. This could be remedied by rotating the entire jack while tightening the nut for the desired orientation but unfortunately there is not enough room inside the unit for the jacks to rotate.
Sorry.

Incidentally,
the slotted screws were chosen because we think they look cool! They are a pain in the neck to install because the screw driver can slip and scratch the panel but we think it is worth the extra effort.

The m902 does store some settings in non volatile memory. Following are some quotes from the owners manual regarding stored and not-stored settings. Note that settings that are accessed in the sub menu are stored in memory when you EXIT the sub menu. If you power the m904 off while you are in the sub menu changes will be lost.

BALANCE MODE... ...Note: The m902 stores the balance level settings for both the headphone and line outputs
in non-volatile memory and recalls these upon each power up.

CROSSFEED MODE (x-feed) This feature is toggled on and off in the submenu, and its current status
is preserved whenever the m902 is power cycled.

EXCLUSIVE OUTPUT mode is reset anytime the m902 is
powered down.

OUTPUT TOGGLE LOCK mode is reset to
OFF whenever the m902 is power cycled.

High gain mode is
reset to OFF whenever the m902 is power cycled.
(It is probably best to operate the m902 in low gain mode unless you are using K1000s and really need it. This is why we decided to have the power up default be Low gain mode)

the dimmer feature mode is reset to OFF
whenever the m902 is power cycled.

In general, settings that we decided not to store fall into two categories:

1) Settings that could be dangerous to your ears at power up i.e. Volume at maximum.

2) Settings that could make the m902 seem broken to someone who is not familiar with all of the submenu options. i.e.. Output toggle lock set on line out.
Hope this helps,
Michael

 

[Harbord]

I have been considering an external DAC for a while and have just received a Benchmark DAC1 on demo. My requirement is for an external DAC connected to my power amp rather than a headphone amp. My initial impression of the Benchmark DAC1 is its clarity and lack of noise. However I have a lot more listening to do.

I do have some superficial comments on the Benchmark DAC1 compared to what I read about the Grace m902. However consideration should be given to Benchmark’s price point of $975 to Grace &1,695.

Benchmark DAC1 – Pro’s

· Balanced Analogue Line Out
· BNC S/PDIF rather than RCA

Benchmark DAC1 – Con’s
· Build quality – Very Plain Looks, Chassis warping, simple/small rubber feet, bright LEDs
· Lack of Sample Rate display

Grace m902 – Pro’s
· Build Quality – Looks, solid feet, LED Display with dimmer
· Sample Rate display

Grace m902 – Con’s
· No Balanced Analogue Line Out
· RCA S/PDIF – Why not use 75 ohm BNC connector or WBT NextGen connector

Obviously the ultimate comparison is sound quality, for which we should get an indication from a few members here that have both a Benchmark DAC1 and Grace m902.

It will be very interesting to see what Benchmark’s forthcoming DAC will be like as it is rumoured to have a similar price point to Grace m902.

 

[Edwood]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbgrace If the headphone mounting nuts on both jacks wind up in the same orientation is is pure coincidence. The switchcraft jacks are manufactured by pressing the stainless steel bushing into the jack body. The bushing is a round part and has no specific keying to the jack body. Hence, the orientation of the beginning of the threads will be random on each jack. This will cause the nut to tighten in a random orientation. This could be remedied by rotating the entire jack while tightening the nut for the desired orientation but unfortunately there is not enough room inside the unit for the jacks to rotate. Sorry.

Why the two holes in the stainless steel bushing? Design element only? Not a good choice if the rotational orientation cannot be controlled.

Heheh, of course this is a good thing that I am critiquing little niggling things like this.

Another "downside" is that the m902 is more revealing, and I have to re-rip some of my music now. It reveals some very very minute clicks and pops I couldn't hear before. Curses!

-Ed

 

[sethk]

Ed, could you tell us what you think of just the amplification portion of the 902? I know that with an integrated device such as this it's hard to separate out just the quality of the amp, but if used from the line out of a CD player, where in the pantheon of amps does it fall? Better than an SR-71?
I'm interested in the 902 because of it's wealth of capabilities, but for the price you can also buy a nice DAC + Amp, so I'm trying to evaluate my options here.

Thanks for the wealth of info so far!

 

[TrevorNetwork]

Pros for DAC1:

Reference class DAC.
HD6xx sound awesome using the balanced mod. (iron_dreamer's)
Looks much more "industrial" and rugged.
Tough as nails.
Instant digital sync.
Unbelievable transparency, and speed.
.
.
.

 

[kyrie]

I'd put the "look much more industrial" into Cons.

 

[TrevorNetwork]

I have not handled an m902, hence my qualifying word "looks".

 

[Edwood]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sethk Ed, could you tell us what you think of just the amplification portion of the 902? I know that with an integrated device such as this it's hard to separate out just the quality of the amp, but if used from the line out of a CD player, where in the pantheon of amps does it fall? Better than an SR-71? I'm interested in the 902 because of it's wealth of capabilities, but for the price you can also buy a nice DAC + Amp, so I'm trying to evaluate my options here. Thanks for the wealth of info so far!

I need to live with the m902 longer to give my full impressions, but so far, suffice it to say, the amplification section of the m902 does have a bit more detail. I can hear reverb and cymbal decay more clearly and hear it's decay a little longer.

I at first felt the dynamics of the 901 was a little better, but I think I'm being fooled by the 901 getting louder faster as you turn the volume up due to the stepped attenuator, vs. the much much finer "steps" the m902 has.

Again, I'll need more time to reach a more conclusive verdict.

-Ed

 

[DukeTogo]

While I'm sure we could debate the "Pro's" and "Cons" of the m902 vs. the DAC1 all day, posts above and insanely long threads elsewhere demonstrate pretty clearly that beauty (and quality/functionality, etc) is in the eye of the beholder. Benchmark should consider themselves lucky to have a dedicated following of vocal people who are apparently thrilled with their DAC1. But it's not for everyone...

Personally I'm GLAD the m902 has the RCA spdif... that is one of the Con's I have against the DAC1. BNC or any of those other equally obscure jacks (AES?) would be damn near useless to me. DAC1 also has no USB or FireWire input, which I think they might be working on. But the current model doesn't have it, so there's another negative. The one real benefit to the thing is that it's cheap as stink. Relatively. But it's not even as portable as the m902 I don't think... at least not with those rack-ears - they don't look particularly removable. Maybe they are. Band-saw?

Personally I'd consider the Apogee Mini-DAC before the DAC1. It has balanced XLR outputs if that's your bag.

That's one thing that's been on my mind... if you could have EITHER balanced IN, or balanced OUT, but not both - Which way would you take it, and why?

I'm thinking if you chose:

IN:
you're feeding your unit from a high-end source with balanced outs. Probably a CD player. It's not likely DVD/SACD because I'm not familiar with any units that have balanced out, though they probably exist. Or you're feeding your unit from a pre-amp that's upstream from it, which means you don't mind putting another layer between your music and your headphones.

OUT:
you're using the unit as a DAC feeding another pre-amp, or you are using it as a combined DAC/pre-amp and feeding an amp directly, maybe even a pair of monitor speakers.

Either way, wouldn't it be cool if you could CHOOSE the direction of the portsl using either a toggle or a dip switch/pin-out? I'm no electronics engineer... how possible do you think that would even be. Then you'd have the best of both worlds.