Looking forward to see how it they compare. I am also eyeing the Gustard A26
Cayin iDAP-8 streamer and iDAC-8 DAC
- Thread starter Andykong
- Start date
Would be interested in your experience with the iDAP-8 once you get it. Am considering it as a streaming solution.
Yep, I can understand, maybe if you could get hold of a high impedance can like a SENN HD600's series can that would be very helpful to see how this amp handles and sounds with that kind of load.
Review is up: https://bytes-bull.com/2024/04/04/cayin-8-stack-iha-8-idac-8/ - overall a great system with a couple of flaws. Excellent value for what it offers though.
zoidbb
100+ Head-Fier
There are some weird flaws in here, like asking why they're using an "older" AKM chip -- the chip in the IDAC-8 is AKM's latest and greatest, and it out performs the Cayin 1-bit discrete DAC significantly. You also call out the separate sales as a flaw, but you seem to not understand that some of us don't want EVERY component. Further, the filters in the AK4191 are the best in the industry /aside/ from custom filters built into FPGAs -- which you generally only get at a price point 3-4x more than what the IDAC-8 costs. Why would you complain about RCA outs on a DAC? Of course it needs RCA outs, the amp doesn't necessarily. The Narrow/Wide bandwidth filtering it for DSD, not PCM -- and you can think of it as similar to a fast or slow rolloff, sorta.
I agree that it's annoying not to have speaker outputs or a pre out on the back of the IHA-8. Personally, given the immense power this beast puts out, I'd like to see actual speaker outs. 20 watts into 16 ohms? You could easily drive a lot of desktop speakers with this beast.
Also, "Trans" mode meads "Transparent" -- as in uncolored.
One thing you surprisingly didn't list as a "con", is that the tubes cannot be changed. The included tubes are pretty mid-tier, and I firmly believe the output of the tube mode could be greatly enhanced if they had chosen to go with a more traditional DAC tube like 12AU7.
EDIT: Also, I'm sorry but the Schiit products you mention in your review don't come anywhere near the sound quality of the IHA/IDAC-8.
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Z_Showmaster
Member of the Trade: Zeppelin & Co.
Valid points all around. Just a quick note that that 'Trans' mode means 'Transistor', the iDAC-8's solid-state output.
Thx for the clarification, I was afraid of using that mode in case that I decide to get this stack and became Trans (sarcasm)
passballtotucker
New Head-Fier
I used it with apple music and it works fine so far. I also tried apple classical but it seems to be capped at 48khz. Not sure if that's something the app has to fix or the DAP. And there's was no manual included and I can't find one online either.
zoidbb
100+ Head-Fier
I doubt this, given that both modes still use the transistors in the amp. Source?
I’m bored at work today, so I’ll play your reindeer games – even though Cayin probably doesn’t want me to post this reply. A 2022 DAC is old in the audio industry – the 1-bit was released less than a year ago. How does the AKM4499EX “outperform” the 1-bit resistor DAC “significantly?” Any proof to go with that claim? Having owned the Cayin R8II (AKM4499EX) and the Cayin N7 (1-bit), I cannot say that the R8II was any better or more capable than the N7 because of the DAC. The 1-bit DAC was brought down from “very high-end SACD players.” In fact, I prefer the newer N7 over the older N8ii for a lot of reasons. I’m not saying the AKM4499EX is bad, just that it’s getting old – the ES9039SPRO just came out, where’s the new AKM chip? Why not use the in-house chip that’s good enough for a $2k DAP? Additionally, you can grab an AKM499EX in the sub-$380 Topping E70 Velvet if you want – a very well-reviewed unit for 1/3rd the price and size.
That leads us into your next point. I mentioned that you can buy stuff separately if you want to, but it would be sort of odd with how the Cayin-8’s are built. You can use the Topping E70V instead of the iDAC-8 if you like since they have the same DAC chip, though since amps typically go on top for heat dissipation, that will look hilarious and work poorly if you put the iHA-8 on top of the E70V. If you put the E70V on top of the iHA-8, the rubber feet might melt to it in Hyper Mode – it gets HOT. The fact remains that the iHA-8/iDAC-8 are designed to go together and an E70V and L70 would make far more sense together.
I’m not really a huge filter fan, they provide minor tuning changes – I prefer the overall sound from a product as the manufacturer intended – one reason why the ERCO 2 is great. I don’t want to play with the sound, I just want it to be excellent from the get-go. However, if you want to talk filters, the Ferrum Wandla is often considered to have some of the best filters (HQ), despite using a single ESS ES9038Pro (not an AKM.) Yes, it’s a lot more expensive, but hey, the FPGA Chord Qutest is pretty cheap these days (often around $1,200-$1,600), as is the FPGA Mojo ($650) – certainly not 3-4x costlier than the $1,200 iDAC-8. The FPGA Chord Hugo TT2 is also a very capable amp – it will cost 2x the Cayin stack – a Hugo 2 can be had with a built-in amp for around the same price as the stack.
Oh, and let’s not forget the excellently rated all-in-one’s from RME. The all-in-one ADI-2 FS ($1,299) is slightly more expensive than just the iDAC-8, but is often considered one of the best DACs out there, with excellent EQ, filters, and it comes with a remote and headphone outputs. It’s also smaller than the iDAC-8 while fulfilling the role of the iDAC-8 and iHA-8 – it uses an ESS ES9028Q2M. It doesn’t put out as much power as the iHA-8, and it’s not a balanced headphone output, but it can do a lot of things very well – and that’s not even mentioning its highly capable ESS ES3098PRO big-brother, the ADI-2/4 Pro SE which offers 3.4W at 32 Ohms balanced out. That’s an all-in-one with excellent performance that is half the size of the iDAC-8 alone. Yes, it has half the power output, no, it doesn’t really matter because it will still drive a Susvara quite well and yes, it costs a little more than the stack. Also, if you want to add an amp on top, there’s a TON of choices that will work with it including some insanely powerful amps from Schiit (the much smaller Lyr will put out 9W at 16 Ohms UNBALANCED for $600 and has swappable tubes and solid-state. It also has RCA outputs on back.)
I’m not complaining about RCA outputs on the DAC, I’m complaining about them being the ONLY place to plug in my speakers since the amp doesn’t have RCA outputs. What if I wanted to output to something else through those RCA outs? I like being able to control my speaker volume from my amp. I want amp RCA outs – it’s very simple to do and most amps have them.
20 Watts? Not sure where you got that from, but the actual output never goes over 10W (9.5W at 16ohms in Hyper Mode to be exact according to Cayin’s balanced output specs.) I did include that chart in my review, thanks for the reminder. I should also add that over time Hyper mode makes the amp hot AF – just something to keep in mind as it can burn you if you touch it for too long. Both the iFi Phantom and Ferrum Oor put out more power (~15W) than this, but both cost 2x-4x as much. The $1,500 Schiit Ragnarok can put out 24W at 32 Ohms – wow. You can add a multibit DAC to it for $300 more – again, wow, an all-in-one box that’s still cheaper than the Cayin-8 stack – it has multiple inputs outputs, speaker outputs, etc. – it will also probably cook an egg on top like the iHA-8 if that’s your thing.
As previously mentioned, Trans means Transistor, cool, good to know – mine didn’t come with a manual, but now I know and will update that when I get the chance.
I don’t see the tubes in the DAC as a con in any way. You want to change tubes? Get a tube amp. I see the tubes in the iDAC-8 as an unnecessary, but welcome, perk. Use them if you want, don’t use them if you don’t want. They added to the price and size of an already pricey DAC. It’s not like this thing is running 300B’s. I would say that a “traditional DAC tube” is a bit of a misnomer on its own since it’s very rare for a DAC to come with tubes unless it’s an all-in-one – since they don’t need them. You’re more likely to need them if your DAC is also a pre-amp, which the iDAC-8 is, but again, I don’t get the point really if your amp can output. I can think of 10 total, very few of which are designed to be a headphone DAC or that don’t have a built-in headphone amp. It’s far more common for amps to have tubes, which allows you to swap them if you want. I guess it’s sort of a Cayin N8II adaption here on the iDAC-8.
The Schiit products I mentioned are 1/3rd the price of this stack. They shouldn’t come near the sound quality of this Cayin stack, but what’s your poof that they don’t come close? Have you heard them, or are you basing that solely off price? The Midgard puts out a ton of power for 1/3rd the price and size (5.5W at 16 Ohms – and it sounds really good.) The Multibit Modi/Modi+ is very easy to argue that it comes close to the iDAC-8. You lose the screen, tubes, some filters, etc. and you drop the price by ¼ to 1/6th – arguably, they’re extremely good DACs that will not sit well under your Cayini iHA-8, but might melt on top of it. You can also get a Bifrost and Jotunheim if you want for less money/desk space than the Cayin-8 stack, - whatever, you do you – I couldn’t care less what other people buy.
I’m using Schiit and RME and Ferrum just as examples. Topping makes all sorts of comparable stuff that is cheaper and very good including a NEW DAC chip, the ESS ES9039SPRO in the D90 III, which costs only $900, and is smaller and lighter as well. The Topping A90? $600 with 9.8W at 6 Ohms output power, but still not massive and heavy. No Hyper Mode needed for more power – it has RCA outputs. Eversolo makes a ES9038PRO DAC/streamer that is cheaper/smaller than the iDAC-8 alone – and it has a headphone out. There are multiple other companies out there that offer similar things for less money or smaller, cooler packages without the issues the Cayin-8 stack has. That’s not my fault.
Cool, do I like the Cayin-8 stack? Yes, despite it attempting to deafen me twice – probably user error (again, why is there a pre-amp/line switch on the back at all?) Is it my current main system until my Ferrum Wandla/Oor Stack comes in for review in a few days? Yes. Will that replace the Cayin-8 stack? No clue – it costs twice as much, I doubt it’s twice as good. Maybe, maybe not – we’ll see. Will the RME ADI-2/4 PRO SE replace both of them? Again, dunno, we’ll see. Could Cayin have done a lot better with the Cayin-8 products for the price? Yes, I think they could have. I would say that the iHA-8 is a bit of a letdown despite the good sound quality – it just doesn’t make a ton of sense. The iDAP-8 costs too much and should include the streamer at this price. It feels like a lot of the cost went to the gigantic aluminum enclosures that don’t come in black. Should people ignore everything I say and get one anyway? Sure, go for it, it’s a beautiful system with excellent sound quality. Buy my system if you want, or don’t – I don’t care. I don’t get paid to write reviews, so I don’t care what people think – I try to provide as unbiased and informed an opinion as possible since I’ve listened to hundreds of audio products – you should try the unbiased thing sometime. Feel free to reply to this novel I’ve written – I won’t read it, but I’m sure other people will and maybe they’ll care about what you have to say. People will buy what they want either way. Cheers, have a great day!
zoidbb
100+ Head-Fier
You're joking, right? We only see significant improvements in DAC technology every 3-5 years. Two years old is hardly "old," and in fact some of the most revered DACs still use chips from the 90s. Often times it's not the chip, but the implementation around the chip, that makes the most difference.
The R8ii is made by Hiby.
The N8ii uses a ROHM DAC chip that has a lot of flaws, and was that company's first DAC chip.
ES9038SPRO was ESS's flagship DAC chip for 7 years. Why would you expect AKM to release a new flagship already? Also, ES9039SPRO came out 2 years ago. So you're asking AKM to make a new chip to compete with... the generation they already have a chip out for?
Why not use the AKM-sourced chip that's good enough for, functionally, a $5k DAP? The AK4499EX is the direct successor to the AK4499EQ in the N30LE.
Sure, and perhaps selling a bundle with a 10% discount might make sense, but not everybody wants the entire stack so it /does/ make sense to sell them individually.
You just proved my point. I literally said that they're the best filters you can get outside of a custom implementation inside of an FPGA. Every DAC you just mentioned as having superior filters, uses custom filters in a separate FPGA.
Did you just praise a DAC that uses a 9 year-old chip, after complaining that the IDAC-8 doesn't use a /newer/ chip? This seems... odd.
The 20w was a typo, sorry, I had meant 10w.
I would argue the actual tragedy is that the pre-amp on the DAC sucks balls. The knob has barely any click to it, and it's 100 steps which is far too many for a headphone amp, and the angular distance is far too high for the knob to be useful on a desktop DAC/pre. The knob and step count on the IHA-8 is far better.
I have a Schiit Ragnarok. It's not a great amp, for either headphones or speakers.
I think you need to spend some time educating yourself on tube DACs. They aren't rare at all.
The point is sound signature. The tubes in the IDAC-8 are mediocre, they're lacking in top-end response and stage vs alternatives that are available in other form factors.
I've heard them. I've had a ton of Schiit amps through here. Unfortunately Schiit only makes good product once every few years, even at their low price points.
You keep acting like a 2 year-old DAC chip is new. This is bizarre to me. Also, not a big fan of Topping's amps. They're extremely dry to my ears.
The switch is on the back to activate/deactivate the built-in volume control, based on whether you have a separate pre-amp (like maybe the one in the DAC?) handling it.
I agree the IDAP-8 costs too much -- the IDAC-8 should've been a few hundred more and included all of its features. I'm not really sure why Cayin decided to deliver two components. I'd have liked to see a DAC w/streaming and a higher-end amp with speaker outputs, each priced at $1500-2000 -- rather than this "three piece suit."
zoidbb
100+ Head-Fier
@Andykong You know what would've made more sense as a third piece to this suit? Something for estats. I'd love to see Cayin's take on what the iFi iESL was, since iFi seems to not care to release a new version and killed the original.
The i-Series iDAP-8 and iDAC-8 are in action at Canjam Singapore 2024. If you were attending the event, you can check them out at booth F11-F14.
passballtotucker
New Head-Fier
The Idap 8 power button blinks when in standby mode. I’d prefer if it didn’t. Although I noticed it wasn’t blinking anymore after being in standby all day. After turning it on and off, it’s back to blinking.
Z_Showmaster
Member of the Trade: Zeppelin & Co.
Only the tubed RCA out uses transistors in the circuit. The rest are all transistor-free. The tubes directly drive the outputs in XLR tubed.
Think of 'Trans' then as "tube-free".
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