[Welly Wu]

Well, at least this mini chapter had a good ending for one of our own.

Tyll has a point too but I think it could have been said more...politely

. Anyway, I'm all for getting fewer things in my life but to make sure they are of higher quality (not just headphones here either); being in personal debt is a constant concern in my mind since I started with this Head-Fi hobby. Seriously, simplicity rules...especially when you know you got the best you could afford without having to go into debt.

Sponsorship costs money too; That's why I've only dealt with community sponsors for all things headphone. If HeadRoom were to make source components and it happened to be what I was looking for, then they got my business even if what they offer is esoteric or a bit more expensive. I've put my money where my mouth is and the good folks at HeadRoom know this by my past purchasing history.

Think of it this way: what's the best win-win-win scenario that I can achieve that benefits the sponsors, Head-Fi, and the community? That's a great way to be a proactive Head-Fi member in the future IMHO.

 

[Tyll Hertsens]

I actually don't want to hammer on AA too much because they simply can't be lumped in with the WalMart. However, ask the guy on the phone what the sonic difference between the 497 and 231 is and he'll probably go, "Huh? What's a 231?" And read the copy on their website, they really aren't trying to show the true relative merits of the cans, as far as I can tell. And then there's the back channel story which is the bit about Sennheisers pricing policy. We are simply trying to toe the line there and everybody keeps fidgeting with the line. Which is annoying as hell.

 

[arnaud]

Slightly off topic. For those who don't quite see the big picture when letting big companies become influencal:

"Fast Food Nation" by Eric Schlosser. It took me 4 years to get to read this book, but when I started, I went pretty fast!! Simply UNBELIEVABLE what the hidden cost of fast food really is...

This is actually not an anti-american or anti-republican book. It just happens to connect the tasty juicy burgers you and I eat to 50 years of evolution of the food industry in the US...

I thought it fits here because it complements what someone said about the hidden cost of buying the cheapest stuff around...

cheers,

Arnaud.

 

[Finalrinse]

I have found this thread very interesting an informative. As you can see I'm a new member of only about one month. After reading the forum for a few days I became very interested in a headphone system. I ordered a Total Airhead from HR to use with my iPod. I liked the amp so much I decided to order a much talked about on this forum, a Perreaux amp and HD650's from a much talked about place called Audio Advisor, and then ordered a Zu-Cable Mobius from Zu-Cable. I guess I thought they where all sponsored by Head-Fi. I was so busy reading the forum I hadn't looked at the sponsors yet, my mistake. The reason I ordered the HD650's from AA was convenience as a package with the Perreaux, and only having to send one money order. I’ve had great service so far at both HR and AA, except for the back-order situation of the HD650's, and it's probably not wise to try and cancel an order with a money order already sent in. Sennheiser said that AA is high on the list when there warehouse is stocked again with 650's. In closing, I think this is a great forum, and I do support HR. Without this forum I would still be using my ear buds, but my wallet would be heavier!

 

[Genetic]

Hi Tyll,

You are, as usual, my favorite «philosophico-entrepreneur». But sometimes you surprise me with the extend of your fervour. Two personal observations:

Quote:

Originally posted by Tyll Hertsens «Fine, commerce is hard ball. I accept that. You do what you can get away with. But american consumers are by and large adolescent fools. They flock to WalMart and bitch about loosing jobs to China. That's stupid. We have a culture of gluttinous consumption, and it let's us think that the normal process for buying something is simply to scrounge for the cheapest price.» (....) «But if you want this little town to grow past mud sidewalks you better decide to shop locally . . . even when it costs a bit extra. Or you can say bye-bye to better products and hello to translucent purple plastic crap. And it's true as a nation, too: unless we decide to buy fewer thing of higher quality, and unless we decide to live a less gluttenous lifestyle, our economy will crumble under the loss of jobs and rediculous personal debt.

1) The problem you identified is not so much with the limits of the «homo economicus», even if it could be easily argue otherwise, but within the lack of understanding of what define the individual. The concept of person in modernity as become so narrow that it's now largely limited to the individual as a «chooser». And the choice is valued in itself without any reference to a sense of value.


2) At first it look as sound advices. I even live by that kind of rules.
I bought all my Hi-Fi equipment from local companies. Expensive but at least I don't have to face the ethical remorse of bying stuff made in the largest totalitarian regime on this planet

But then again the simple fact of bying local don't represent a safe mode of ethical conduct. What are the ethical garantees coming from the ones who are nearer than the others? In other words, I don't want to buy from people simply because they live in my community. I want to endorse products that are made by people who have values that I share. Happily this can be found where I live, but it's not a free ride for the local economy. In conclusion, the economical aspect is, in my opinion, important but secondary. As a general principle, I could submit, «Show me your values and I'll show you my money».

Regards,

P.S. I wonder what is the socio-ecological impact of a Shanling.... But who cares....

 

[gsferrari]

Just to understand a few things :-
=======================

If Sennheiser is SOOO particular about its prices - why do they ship wholesale to other resellers anyway? How does AA, Amazon.com etc. get hold of these items and sell for a lot less?

I bought my HD-580 from Amazon.com for $150.00 when Headroom had and is still selling it for $199.00. It was a no-brainer for me at that time...

Everyone has MARK-UPS and some people Mark-Up more than others...

the Klipsch Promedia Ultra 5.1 costs $180.00 to produce. NO JOKES HERE!! The value of all parts in that system is only $130.00.

Mark it up and sell it for $300.00 - OK - no probs...

But it retails for $400.00

I have always and WILL always purchase my gear from the place where I find it at the most competitive price WHILE at the same time keeping the reputation and return policy of the store in mind.

If AA, Amazon, audiocubes, goodcans etc, give me a better price then I will give them my business because I have never had a bad experience with them AND I feel glad to have saved...

People who shop at Walmart are not gluttonous - what an insane statement to make!!

Not everyone can afford what some of us can and they go there with the little money that they have and come out with a smile on their faces - which is what matters most.

You have a Denon DVD Player - they have an Apex DVD player which plays mp3's, VCD's, Photo CD's and just about ANYTHING you throw into it.

You have a high end $5000.00 music system or plasma TV - they have a $200.00 SONY music system and a 32" TV....

You're happy - they're happy - its a difference in the economies of scale.

Style, classy living conditions are all luxuries of the rich, others can only do what they can to get the best for themselves.

If China is taking away your businesses and making people here lose their jobs - What are you guys doing wrong to bring this **** on yourselves!?!? You have to adapt to the changes - you cant have everything your way. The last time this happened Japan took over as the worlds largest automobile manufacturer!!

Wise up!!

 

[arnaud]

Quote:

Originally posted by gsferrari If China is taking away your businesses and making people here lose their jobs - What are you guys doing wrong to bring this **** on yourselves!?!? You have to ****ing adapt to the changes - you cant have everything your way. The last time this happened Japan took over as the worlds largest automobile manufacturer!! Wise up!!

Go get a job in China and only after give us your opinion on who should be wise...

We when talk about the walmart customer, the only one that we criticise here is of your kind: the one who CAN afford paying the extra bit but won't because he is has no idea what it took to price the product so low...

cheers,

Arnaud.

 

[Genetic]

Quote:

Originally posted by gsferrari Just to understand a few things :- ======================= (...) If China is taking away your businesses and making people here lose their jobs - What are you guys doing wrong to bring this **** on yourselves!?!? You have to ****ing adapt to the changes - you cant have everything your way. The last time this happened Japan took over as the worlds largest automobile manufacturer!! Wise up!!

Hi gsferrari,

I won't reply for Tyll and won't question his wisdom either, but I have a problem with the consequences of what your adaptation to the «changes» imply.
Simples questions: After China what's next? Africa?

Haaa.... the satisfaction of bying stuff made by people who worked for food.... Better, my headphone saved lives....

Regards,

P.S. Off topic???

 

[rsaavedra]

Well this pricing issue has become such a trigger for discussing global employment and social issues. It's commendable that you guys are willing to pay more to sort of "symbolically" not feed the circumstances that are allowing low-paid jobs in some parts of the world. But hey, I don't think those actions really help much in the end. Realistically speaking (realistically, not realllllllistically as I've been writing so many times

) If it helps you keep some peace of mind, that's a different thing.

By paying more in a local retail store, well you are just giving a larger profit margin to some other local retailers, that's all, and within a very small market relatively speaking (e.g. high-end headphones).

You can't get high-end Sennheisers in Walmart. And it's way way too many more people that go buy in Walmart most other things compared to the # of people that purchase high end headphones.

Actually, Walmart was not long ago the #1 company in Fortune's 500 hundred. Do you think by keeping your peace of mind when buying high-end headphones you are helping the large social problems you are referring to? Audioadvisor and many other competitors of Headfi sponsors are far from being Walmart size retail stores.

If some local retailers price-match larger ones, as Headroom did vs Audioadvisor, I'm sure Headroom is still making a decent profit. I'm thankful for Headroom's to have price-matched the price, otherwise the price difference would have been 14.63%. (minor edit here after realizing the price I got from HeadRoom included shipping).

I think Guru has some good points, not everyone has the same income, and because you want high quality music doesn't mean you can easily put down the money asked for some high end headphones.

Even with low-mid incomes, you can love music enough to take your time to save enough for high end audio equipment, is a luxury maybe but affordable with patience, and it would make all the sense in the world to get that equipment for the lowest available price in those conditions. Doing otherwise might help Head-fi, well ok good. Might give you some peace of mind, well ok even better, but in the large scope of things, helping those employment issues in China or wherever you guys are talking about? Putting matters of principle aside, that's a huge scale misperception imho.

 

[gsferrari]

Quote:

Originally posted by genetic Haaa.... the satisfaction of bying stuff made by people who worked for food.... Better, my headphone saved lives....

What makes you want to demean their ability to make a good product? Everything you on is probably made in the Far east...China, Taiwan, Japan and the rest of Asia...

Your headphone saved lives??

Do you care...no...dare to elaborate on that statement ??

 

[gsferrari]

Quote:

Originally posted by arnaud Go get a job in China and only after give us your opinion on who should be wise... We when talk about the walmart customer, the only one that we criticise here is of your kind: the one who CAN afford paying the extra bit but won't because he is has no idea what it took to price the product so low... cheers, Arnaud.

I CAN afford to pay - but when I can get it for cheap - I want it

unfortunately the point here is

Cheap != Bad Quality

its an inequality as far as my experiences are concerned.

I will pay taxes, cost price and labour - THATS ABOUT IT!!!

I am not a fan of excessive markups. Those Sennheiser HD-650's cost just as much or maybe just a little more than the HD-580's to produce...you pay a price for their "newness".

I want to hear what Headroom, TTVJ, AA etc. pay for their headphones when they buy from the manufacturer.

It may be NONE OF MY BUSINESS - but I dont care - I have a pretty good idea what the answer to that question will be.



Does ANYONE honestly believe the R-10 is worth $3000.00 - it probably cost them $200.00 to make it

same for the Etymotics/Shures etc.


We want it so bad that they got smart and they make us pay what we are made to believe is an acceptable price...its like this - If every car in the world was expensive - no one would complain....

bring in ONE cheap and GOOD car and the whole economy could collapse....cant let that happen can we??

 

[mjg]

I feel the whole notion of being some sort of activist by putting your money at a certain company for, a materialistic item (headphones?) is vomit inducing. People, stop trying to act hoiler then thou by saying you buy your headphones from certain places, merely to support this hobby, to suppor this country, or <insert cause here>. In the end, you are purchasing it for yourself, for your self to enjoy.

I don't doubt for a minute that anybody, would jump on a good deal when they see it. Don't reserve judgement for those that admit they do this all the time, perhaps be honest with yourself.

THose are my comments, and if they are offense, lighten up.

BTW if it isn't implied, I agree with gsferrari.

 

[arnaud]

Quote:

Originally posted by gsferrari I CAN afford to pay - but when I can get it for cheap - I want it unfortunately the point here is Cheap != Bad Quality It may be NONE OF MY BUSINESS - but I dont care - I have a pretty good idea what the answer to that question will be.

Ok, please read the post once again and quote somebody here who said that... That's not the point at all!!! The point is that labor wages are already not always great in the US, but still so much higher than in many companies in s.e. asia.


Quote:

Originally posted by gsferrari I want to hear what Headroom, TTVJ, AA etc. pay for their headphones when they buy from the manufacturer. It may be NONE OF MY BUSINESS - but I dont care - I have a pretty good idea what the answer to that question will be.

Right, go teach Tyll how he should price his gear for his business to be fine tuned. I believe you now: headroom is making insane profits on all the gear the sell!!! Let's cut it short, they had it coming!

Arnaud.

 

[arnaud]

Quote:

Originally posted by mjg I feel the whole notion of being some sort of activist by putting your money at a certain company for, a materialistic item (headphones?) is vomit inducing. People, stop trying to act hoiler then thou by saying you buy your headphones from certain places, merely to support this hobby, to suppor this country, or <insert cause here>. In the end, you are purchasing it for yourself, for your self to enjoy.

I think you are right, this thread is going out of control, we should go back to the original focus: "Where to get the HD650s, dirt cheap, I don't give a damn about this forum and its sponsors".

For people like you, I wish head-fi was pay-per-view...

And be it vomit inducing for you, I and some others here DO PURCHASE OUR HEADPHONE GEAR THROUGH HEAD-FI SPONSORS because we APPRECIATE how helpful this forum is.

Arnaud.

 

[gsferrari]

I dont begrudge them for making profits - thats why they ARE in business.

i have no problems with headroom, ttvj or anyone...if I see them offering a good deal (as they often do) then I will snap it up.

At the same time - if I see a good deal elsewhere then I wont hesitate (as long as its from some place I am confortable with...amazon, newegg and even walmart

)

if they cant handle it - its their problem