[haloxt]

I don't actually expect manufacturers to do it hehe, that'd cost quite a lot of research time and money.

 

[johnwmclean]

Quote:

Originally Posted by GuyDebord /img/forum/go_quote.gif Really? wasnt Sennheiser pairing with Lehmann in the early promotion of the HD800? Arent magazines, including many british like the (now american) hifi+, complying with the Lehmann BCL/HD800 combo suggested by Sennheiser?

What the hell were you expecting, Sennheiser had to use an amp somehow to promote their HD800's. As far as I know Sennheiser have never suggested an amp/HD800 combo.

 

[Geek]

John W.,

I def. agree about equipment - I have a $333 source that does just fine. I've made it an art trying to find the cheapest equipment possible that makes HD's sound good... been doing it since the HD600

- although now I have this monster amp from headroom... making progress...

I also generally agree about HD800 defenders... I am one, true, but I'm just going with what I hear, I like a lot of other phones - I used to be an all-Beyer kind of guy until I managed to make the hd600s sound good back in the day - and I think generally most HD800 proponents are doing what they're doing based on objectivity.

I also think HD800 opponents are generally making really good points and should be respected for that. Some of these points deal directly with the HD800's new sound - obvious, and clearly audible to even non-audiophiles - to me (a violinist with semi-trashed hearing) it's obvious that the HD800's high end is a departure from the HD6xx family, for instance. The trouble begins when we try to figure out what to think of a new sound. Should we like it or not? Again, agreeing to disagree is a good idea with a headphone like the 800... especially when someone doesn't like it and is driving it with $10k of equipment, or has tried it with different amps and sources. I can be tough presenting a dissenting point of view on a forum such as this - there are a LOT of proponents of the HD800. It's definitely not a phone for everybody though.

 

[GuyDebord]

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnwmclean /img/forum/go_quote.gif What the hell were you expecting, Sennheiser had to use an amp somehow to promote their HD800's. As far as I know Sennheiser have never suggested an amp/HD800 combo.

From HiFi+:
"The Sennheiser HD800 is a wonderful and demanding beast. When we tested it in Germany, the headphone amp used was the Lehmann Black Cube Linear. With a total output power of 200mW into a 300 ohm load, a claimed THD of less than 0.001% at 6mW/300ohms, a signal to noise ratio of more than 95dB at 0dB gain plus a very flat frequency response from 10Hz up to 35kHz, the Lehmann Linear is a perfect match for the new flagship headphones. If it’s good enough for Sennheiser…"

From an official press release:
"At the High End 2009 which just closed its doors, Sennheiser electronic, the innovation leader in the field of dynamic headphones, employed a headphone amplifier from Lehmann audio for their presentation of the brandnew top-of-the-range model HD 800.

The Linear headphone amplifier used by Sennheiser has been a constant for years in the in-house design lab and is both accepted and popular with music lovers and professionals alike."

If sennheiser was not interested in promoting the Lehmann, they would have covered it up, not make a show with it, dont you think?

 

[haloxt]

Lol okay, from now on Sennheiser is not allowed to tell people what equipment they are listening to at shows.

 

[GuyDebord]

Quote:

Originally Posted by haloxt /img/forum/go_quote.gif Lol okay, from now on Sennheiser is not allowed to tell people what equipment they are listening to at shows.

why not? it means that they like it, thats why they chose it to showcase them... whats wrong about that?

 

[johnwmclean]

Quote:

Originally Posted by GuyDebord /img/forum/go_quote.gif From HiFi+: "The Sennheiser HD800 is a wonderful and demanding beast. When we tested it in Germany, the headphone amp used was the Lehmann Black Cube Linear. With a total output power of 200mW into a 300 ohm load, a claimed THD of less than 0.001% at 6mW/300ohms, a signal to noise ratio of more than 95dB at 0dB gain plus a very flat frequency response from 10Hz up to 35kHz, the Lehmann Linear is a perfect match for the new flagship headphones. If it’s good enough for Sennheiser…" From an official press release: "At the High End 2009 which just closed its doors, Sennheiser electronic, the innovation leader in the field of dynamic headphones, employed a headphone amplifier from Lehmann audio for their presentation of the brandnew top-of-the-range model HD 800. The Linear headphone amplifier used by Sennheiser has been a constant for years in the in-house design lab and is both accepted and popular with music lovers and professionals alike." If sennheiser was not interested in promoting the Lehmann, they would have covered it up, not make a show with it, dont you think?

GuyDebord, the statement does not come directly from Sennheiser. They had to use an amp to showcase the HD800’s, there’s simply no way around that - it just happens to be the Lehmann. Sennheiser have never actively promoted the Lehmann amplifier for use with the HD800.

 

[HeadphoneAddict]

I prefer the HD800 on a nice tube hybrid like my WA6 or ZDT, and then they are not cold and sterile sounding. On the Grahm Slee Solo I did think they sounded like that, but some SS amps are still good with them, like my balanced Single Power Square Wave XL. So, I still think the myriad of opinions on the HD800 reflect the myriad of amps (and sources) being used with them.

 

[pp312]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsaliga /img/forum/go_quote.gif And some would suggest that too much emphasis is placed on the periphery of one's setup. Someone reports that they didn't like a particular headphone, and thus ensues a fishing expedition that seeks to uncover problems with the listener, problems with his setup, lack of synergy between components, poor interconnects, etc., etc. Some of it approaches the point of absurdity, where the advice is for someone to build a whole new system around their new headphones using so called best-of-breed components. That is not say that I don't believe in the importance of having good sources, amps, and other components. But I don't accept that by mere virtue of the fact that someone does not like a particular headphone that there must be a causal relationship between other gear in the system and listener dissatisfaction. Is it possible? Of course it is. But oftentimes it is the simplest explanation that is the most accurate, and that might include someone just not liking the way a set of phones sound. And in such cases no amount of remediation to the system is going to change that outcome. --Jerome

At the risk of totally destroying my credibility here (do I have any?), I have to say that in all my years of swapping around components ( and I've been in hi fi around 50 years), I've never heard a CD player or amplifier make such a difference to a system as to change my opinion of a speaker or headphone. The effect of those components is subtle. Indeed I recently did a comparison of several CD players, expensive and cheap, and the differences were minimal. The expensive players were the Rotel RCD971, Marantz CD17 Mk11 and Shanling CD100. The cheap players were an old Sony CDP-s37 and a Pioneer universal player. Folks, I'm sorry, I just couldn't reliably hear a difference, and if I thought I did, it wasn't necessarily in favour of the expensive players. Likewise with amps: Ive had hundreds of amps and I've got just as good results with phones (mostly high impedance, it should be noted) from old (or new) integrateds as from the LD MkV and the Cute Beyond with dedicated power supply. (I know these aren't state-of-the-art, but surely to earn their chops they should be better than an old NAD, right?). So I have to say, I'm now in the camp of those who publish magazines like The Audio Critic: I'm convinced that, so long as a component is competently designed and not running into distortion, 95% of the sound quality is due to the speaker or phone, and that is where we ought to direct our money. I don't believe that when a buyer truly hates a product like the HD800, changing system components will change his opinion (given that his system is of reasonable quality, of course). That's not to say there won't be ANY change in sound quality, just not enough to turn hate into love.

That said, I do believe a change can occur from burn-in and simply giving oneself time to get used to the sound, especially if coming from, say, a 650 to an 800. People say, "OK, I'll take your advice and get the Sleeman Plurette amp. Even if it is $8,000, it'll be worth it." 3 weeks later they write, "OK, I just got it and it does make a difference; you were right. Hell, I'm keeping my ZD470 headphone now--thanks." Come on, auditory memory is so unreliable; our wish fulfillment is so strong; how can you be sure you haven't just got usd to the sound or the phone hasn't just burnt in? Plus our moods, our impressions change all the time. How many among us have changed components or tried some tweak and thought, "Wow, that really does make a difference!" Next morning we've got up anxious to enjoy the new improved sound only to think, "Gee, what's happened? That doesn't sound like last night! That's crap!" O the joys of hi-fying.

Lest anyone think I'm a total cynic, I reiterate that I do believe in burn in. Maybe auditory memory is playing a trick here too, but I'll swear phones and speakers do change dramatically with use over time.

 

[HeadphoneAddict]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pp312 /img/forum/go_quote.gif At the risk of totally destroying my credibility here (do I have any?), I have to say that in all my years of swapping around components ( and I've been in hi fi around 50 years), I've never heard a CD player or amplifier make such a difference to a system as to change my opinion of a speaker or headphone. The effect of those components is subtle.

I respect that you've been here 8 years and probably have a lot of experience. In this case the effect of an amp on the HD800 is not that subtle - and the particular complaints of the OP regarding the HD800 are improved with proper pairing with the amp.

He said, "...they have calculative, clinical and sterile soul which I have never related to music... I think this headphones are very good, among the top in current production dynamic HP's, but by no means I consider them among the very best."

What the OP doesn't like about them doesn't need a component to completely change the sound of the phones, it's simply a matter of finding an amp to match the character of the HD800 and to complement them and make them more enjoyable. The HD800 on the Eddie Current ZDT or Balancing Act, or Woo WA22, are not clinical and sterile but rather are more musical and stirring.

Also, a person could love the HD800 with their particular amp but pair them with a bright or dry source (maybe an CA 840c or Benchmark DAC1), and the combo can become less than enjoyable. The difference between liking a headphone and wanting to keep it and thinking it is good but passing on it can be due to the subtle differences in the source and amp.

 

[spinali]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Townyj /img/forum/go_quote.gif I thought Burn in was a myth

Burn-in is a myth. Break-in, however, seems to exist.

Headphone Break-In: Facts and Fiction

 

[Currawong]

I upgraded my amp to a better balanced one (which was the plan anyway) and it changed the HD-800s from a maybe to a yes. I still have my old amp and I can switch back to it and the horrid sibilance on some tracks if I wish and verify my decision any time. I am feeling that they are too cold and sterile though. I'm awaiting plugs, then I'll see if an OCCC re-cable wont rectify that. So far, reports from other people (not people who make cables) have been promising.

I think it's a case of the HD-800s being TOO good, if that makes any sense. They do such a good job that they just aren't fun to listen with on many systems.

 

[HeadphoneAddict]

J/K - I believe in it too...

 

[vcoheda]

the 800 on the B52 totally rocks. i'm very tempted to splurge on an aftermarket cable to see if things can get any better. but even with stock, i am very impressed.

 

[SmellyGas]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pp312 /img/forum/go_quote.gif At the risk of totally destroying my credibility here (do I have any?), I have to say that in all my years of swapping around components ( and I've been in hi fi around 50 years), I've never heard a CD player or amplifier make such a difference to a system as to change my opinion of a speaker or headphone. The effect of those components is subtle.

Neither have I...and I have read several tests published in major audio magazines, and none were able to corroborate the enormous differences that people claim to hear between sources, amplifiers, and cables. The interesting thing is that these magazines are all supported by advertising, so I'm pretty sure publishing these articles hurt them financially.

Quote:

Indeed I recently did a comparison of several CD players, expensive and cheap, and the differences were minimal. The expensive players were the Rotel RCD971, Marantz CD17 Mk11 and Shanling CD100. The cheap players were an old Sony CDP-s37 and a Pioneer universal player. Folks, I'm sorry, I just couldn't reliably hear a difference, and if I thought I did, it wasn't necessarily in favour of the expensive players.

A long time ago, I added an external DAC made by California Audio Labs (now defunct) to my CD player, and man I was so convinced of the sonic improvements. Then my electrical engineer friend came over, said let's do a blinded test, and BAM, suddenly I couldn't tell the difference anymore. But I kept the DAC anyway because it looked cool.

Quote:

Likewise with amps: Ive had hundreds of amps and I've got just as good results with phones (mostly high impedance, it should be noted) from old (or new) integrateds as from the LD MkV and the Cute Beyond with dedicated power supply.

I cannot reliably hear differences between my Audiotailor Jade, a heavily modified OBH-11, the Lehmann BCL clone stage in my Yulong, and my cheapo Sony receiver. If there are differences, they are very subtle. If all these amplifiers are able to drive my headphones with a flat frequency response within the audio spectrum, and they don't add any audible distortion, then honestly, how COULD they sound very different?

Quote:

So I have to say, I'm now in the camp of those who publish magazines like The Audio Critic: I'm convinced that, so long as a component is competently designed and not running into distortion, 95% of the sound quality is due to the speaker or phone, and that is where we ought to direct our money.

I love the Audio Critic. Too bad reporting what is scientifically-based and supported by evidence doesn't earn you advertising money from the companies that you alienate. This is why they have such a small circulation and they had to go completely online a few years ago. Nobody wants to read an amplifier review that discusses the circuit topology, then concludes with "it sounds the same as every other amplifier...." People want to read about how the amplifier made the reviewer tap his feet and start dancing in the living room.

Quote:

I don't believe that when a buyer truly hates a product like the HD800, changing system components will change his opinion (given that his system is of reasonable quality, of course). That's not to say there won't be ANY change in sound quality, just not enough to turn hate into love.

I agree 100%, but unfortunately, 99% of this board apparently thinks this is crazy-talk.
[/QUOTE]