[Dan Lavry]

Sorry, I posted it twice by mistake.

Dan Lavry

 

[Uncle Erik]

Quote:

Originally Posted by oqvist /img/forum/go_quote.gif The problem is that you like the Hd 800 so much you feel attached to it and can´t take anyone saying anything negative about it. Every time somebody say something negative about the Hd 800 it´s trolling obviously. OP was diplomatic enough surely. Smellygas has the opposite problem you have with the HD 800 can´t take any positive remarks on it.

There are two ways I can respond to your post:

1. I don't agree with you, so let me try to persuade you otherwise. And if I don't, then we'll just chalk it up to personal taste and we'll agree to disagree.

2. You're an idiot who obviously didn't read the thread. If you ha decent reading comprehension skills and bothered to think before you posted you wouldn't write such dumb things. Obviously, being a deluded fanboy who is in need of psychotherapy, you can't be taken seriously.

And no offense meant. That's to illustrate the kinds of responses some people make to those who disagree with them.

Leaving the pro/con of a headphone out of it, throwing out insults is not a way to have a conversation or persuade anyone. If someone called you a fanboy, how would you take it? Would your reaction be, "you know, he's right, and I'm totally wrong"?

Are you arguing that any opinion of something a person enjoys is invalid? That if you like something, all objectivity is lost and your opinion becomes worthless? Are only negative opinions honest? Are neutral opinions valid at all?

The issue here has nothing to do with opinions of a headphone, for or against. It has everything to do with personal insults.

Do you see the difference?

 

[oqvist]

no offense taken.

My reaction would be yes I am a fanboy like 95 % in here is I recon regarding some things. I don´t love all headphones equally surely. Only those that are into this hobby to get chicks rather then having any serious interest in headphones would not feel any attachment to the gear that gives them the most pleasure

.

fanboy is such a misused term as something negative it ain´t funny. I can understand it´s annoying since fans of a headphone will often not share the same views of a reviewer not liking something and are trying maybe to hard to fix the ev problems they may have with their setup. Some people just don´t want any suggestions. Whereas people who don´t care don´t take sides as clearly.

I have read this thread numerous times by now and have not seen where you have been personally insulted?

 

[kool bubba ice]

DT48 ultra fan boy.. balanced sen 650 fanboy. Why is fan boy so negative? You can still be objective..

 

[GuyDebord]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveM324 /img/forum/go_quote.gif The OP said he sold them after slightly less than a month of ownership. He said he burned them in for 1-1/2 weeks (roughly equal to 250 hrs) which is 10.5 days. Lets say he owned them for 25 days (slightly less than a month) before he sold them. That would mean he listened to them for about 14.5 days everyday at roughly 10 hrs a day to get the total hours up to 400. Possible? Yes. Likely...I don't think so. Even at 400 hrs, I don't think my HD800s were fully burned in.

Cant I be more clear? About the burn-in, I feel I have to repeat what I wrote.... I did the following:

1. Play without burn in and some observations
2. 1.5 weeks of continuous play without observations, around 250hrs.
3. Observations begun and the HD800's were played most of the time AFTER
4. I would estimate that before selling them they had between 500 and 600 hours of play, not pink noise, I used music.

I am aware of the mystical "burning in", I have been around 20 years in the HiFi hobby, enough to not take this for granted in a review......

Thanks to all that have supported and to all that have ranted these humble observations!

 

[JaZZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kool bubba ice /img/forum/go_quote.gif DT48 ultra fan boy.. balanced sen 650 fanboy. Why is fan boy so negative? You can still be objective..

A fanboy is nothing negative. But if someone calls you a fanboy it most likely is to disqualify your opinion.

However, of course we're all headphone fanboys!

.

 

[Beagle]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Lavry /img/forum/go_quote.gif You said: "How much can you do with a magnet, diaphragm and voice coil? You can only create or shape so many sounds. Some '70's headphones (ex. Yamaha HP-1) sound better than a lot of today's top dynamics". This is not how things work. A magnet, diaphragm and voice coil do not "pull out" a "clarinet voice" or a "piano voice" out of some "box of different type of sounds". The idea is to have the electronics be able to respond to ANY sound within the range of human hearing. The question is how well the goal is achieved, not the how many "shape of sounds". Music is about ANY waveform (shape) within the limits of hearing (frequency range and dynamic range).

All headphones have different sound characteristics. I guess we're not there yet.

Quote:

You said: "Things don't get better, they get different and more expensive...." Really? things do not get better? You really should take that comment back. Things do get better! I am sure you are not going to claim that the old Edison roll and that old horn are as good as what you have today. And BTW, they were very costly when first introduced to the market.

I was talking about headphones over the last 30 years. But a lot of people would choose a vintage tube amp over today's SS.

Quote:

As a designer with over 38 years experience, I can tell you that for the most part, things do get better, much better. Advances in materials, introduction of many new and very practical concepts, better knowhow regarding human hearing and much more, does have a significant positive impact on both performance improvement and cost reduction.

Only if the resulting product sounds better.

Quote:

It is true that there are some setbacks, and one can even find areas where technology is losing grounds, usually for economics reasons. But can you really say that "Things don't get better, they get different and more expensive...."?

Yes, if they don't sound any better and cost more.

But thank you for your comments.

 

[SmellyGas]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pp312 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Smellygas has the opposite problem you have with the HD 800 can´t take any positive remarks on it.

LOL, nah. I just happen to think the HD800's are overhyped, and I know there are many people in my camp. Besides, I already posted how I was able to eliminate the sibilance problem and treble bias to the point where I think they actually sound quite good. Unfortunately, nobody was interested because people here have amp fever. If you don't like how your headphones sound, "oh it must be your amp." If you cannot hear the sonic excellence of XYZ headphones, "oh you need to get a new amp." If you already have an adequate/expensive amp, "oh you need to get a different amp." If there is a detectable 8dB 6khz peak on published graphs, and eq'ing it out with a simple 4.0 Q filter fixes the sibilance and treble problems completely, "oh, i'd rather just get a new amp." Buying a new amp is sexy. Analyzing a problem and developing a solution is not.

I predict that sometime in the future, someone who also finds the HD800 bright and sibilant will post a similar dramatic improvement with adding a 6kHz filter, and people will catch on. When this happens, I will kindly refer back to this post.

 

[nor_spoon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmellyGas /img/forum/go_quote.gif LOL, nah. I just happen to think the HD800's are overhyped, and I know there are many people in my camp. Besides, I already posted how I was able to eliminate the sibilance problem and treble bias to the point where I think they actually sound quite good. Unfortunately, nobody was interested because people here have amp fever. If you don't like how your headphones sound, "oh it must be your amp." If you cannot hear the sonic excellence of XYZ headphones, "oh you need to get a new amp." If you already have an adequate/expensive amp, "oh you need to get a different amp." If there is a detectable 8dB 6khz peak on published graphs, and eq'ing it out with a simple 4.0 Q filter fixes the sibilance and treble problems completely, "oh, i'd rather just get a new amp." Buying a new amp is sexy. Analyzing a problem and developing a solution is not. I predict that sometime in the future, someone who also finds the HD800 bright and sibilant will post a similar dramatic improvement with adding a 6kHz filter, and people will catch on. When this happens, I will kindly refer back to this post.

Nah, it's not necessarily your amp. Could also be your source

 

[peanuthead]

Ha ha. I think I can empathize with how you feel about some of the amp recommendations on this forum; based on some of the discussions, you'd think amps are mainly tone-control devices. However, to my ears anyways, certain amps "synergize" better with certain phones, and some amps are clearly better than others. However, I do not think that you need a multi-thousand dollar gear to enjoy the HD800. I had a blast listening to HD800 with Gilmore Lite and an old CD player.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmellyGas /img/forum/go_quote.gif LOL, nah. I just happen to think the HD800's are overhyped, and I know there are many people in my camp. Besides, I already posted how I was able to eliminate the sibilance problem and treble bias to the point where I think they actually sound quite good. Unfortunately, nobody was interested because people here have amp fever. If you don't like how your headphones sound, "oh it must be your amp." If you cannot hear the sonic excellence of XYZ headphones, "oh you need to get a new amp." If you already have an adequate/expensive amp, "oh you need to get a different amp." If there is a detectable 8dB 6khz peak on published graphs, and eq'ing it out with a simple 4.0 Q filter fixes the sibilance and treble problems completely, "oh, i'd rather just get a new amp." Buying a new amp is sexy. Analyzing a problem and developing a solution is not. I predict that sometime in the future, someone who also finds the HD800 bright and sibilant will post a similar dramatic improvement with adding a 6kHz filter, and people will catch on. When this happens, I will kindly refer back to this post.

 

[JaZZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmellyGas /img/forum/go_quote.gif LOL, nah. I just happen to think the HD800's are overhyped, and I know there are many people in my camp.

That sounds like an ideologic debate. But it's not about ideology and who's right, it's about preferences. You don't rate it that highly, and that's o.k. To me and my ears the HD 800 isn't overhyped at all, it's the headphone I have waited for (with little reservations).


Quote:

Besides, I already posted how I was able to eliminate the sibilance problem and treble bias to the point where I think they actually sound quite good.

That's what I actually have expected. My pair has a 6-kHz peak as well. Today I tried to equalize it on Wabelab. The sound became smoother and slightly less fatiguing, but to my surprise it wasn't more «right». So it seems that I can live with this kind of treble emphasis. Equalizing the K 701 and the HD 650 showed the same result, BTW. I attribute this to the fact that our ears don't have a fixed hearing curve; it strongly depends on the impact angle. So there's quite some tolerance to frequency-response deviations, at least in the treble. Moreover my experience tells me that with headphones I can adapt myself to different sonic characteristics. And I guess I'm not alone with that. And finally the treble has become increasingly smoother even after 250 hours, and the smoothing is still in progress.


Quote:

Unfortunately, nobody was interested because people here have amp fever. If you don't like how your headphones sound, "oh it must be your amp." If you cannot hear the sonic excellence of XYZ headphones, "oh you need to get a new amp." If you already have an adequate/expensive amp, "oh you need to get a different amp." If there is a detectable 8dB 6khz peak on published graphs, and eq'ing it out with a simple 4.0 Q filter fixes the sibilance and treble problems completely, "oh, i'd rather just get a new amp." Buying a new amp is sexy. Analyzing a problem and developing a solution is not.

I think your problem is your ideologic bias – which clearly speaks out of the bitterness perceivable from your writing. You are convinced that amps and electronics generally do very little to the sound. It's true that they can't smooth a treble spike, but some of them, with the right synergy, somehow manage to smooth the sound nonetheless and make the treble emphasis a non-issue. It may still be there, but it's not bothering anymore.

You could try a tube amp with your HD 800; you'll probably notice that you can renounce the equalizer. And it's not because the amp has such an enormous treble roll-off. – Currently I have a borrowed Mapletree Ear++ at my disposal. I think you'll like it with the HD 800. Symphonies and other orchestral works sound breathtakingly real and very, very organic and musical. But all in all I still prefer the Corda Symphony's unvarnished accuracy and detail.
.

 

[RationalGaze]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JaZZ /img/forum/go_quote.gif ......Currently I have a borrowed Mapletree Ear++ at my disposal. I think you'll like it with the HD 800....

X2. I use a $700 Mapltetree tube amp. I think my HD800s sound quite good, and I do not feel the need to get a $1000+ amp.

 

[SmellyGas]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nor_spoon /img/forum/go_quote.gif Nah, it's not necessarily your amp. Could also be your source

Har har.

It's not my source. I have a couple of tracks with very sibilant vocals. Using the same source, the sibilance is most exaggerated on the HD800, somewhat better on the PS1000 and Ed8, and nonexistent on the HD650 and Stax SR-007. So clearly, my source is not the cause of the exaggerated.

Quote:

Originally Posted by peanuthead /img/forum/go_quote.gif Ha ha. I think I can empathize with how you feel about some of the amp recommendations on this forum; based on some of the discussions, you'd think amps are mainly tone-control devices.

Right. Which is why I suggested elsewhere that the only amp upgrade that I thought would fix the HD800 treble problem was one with a big fat tone control on the front panel. The FB's were not amused. (As it turns out, this comment was on the right track.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by JaZZ /img/forum/go_quote.gif That's what I actually have expected. My pair has a 6-kHz peak as well. Today I tried to equalize it on Wabelab. The sound became smoother and slightly less fatiguing, but to my surprise it wasn't more «right». So it seems that I can live with this kind of treble emphasis. Equalizing the K 701 and the HD 650 showed the same result, BTW.

Thanks for actually trying it out. I found that the 6khz -8db Q4.0 filter was only necessary on non-audiophile recordings (like some alternative, some pop/rock, etc., most trance - stuff that has a treble boost already for radio play) and recordings with lots of sibilance. I thought that well-recorded classical music sounded just fine without EQ correction. So I think it depends on what music you're listening to. However, I'm not going to dump my collection of non-audiophile recordings just to make my headphones sound good. It's the headphones that are supposed to make my music sound good.

Also, did you use a Q of 4.0 and a parametric eq? I don't think the HD650 has a treble bias or a sibilance problem at all. This is why I superimposed the freq resp curves of the HD800 and HD650 and how I came up with the correction. If you're using a different Q, then you may not be doing exactly what I did, but thanks for trying it out.

Quote:

Moreover my experience tells me that with headphones I can adapt myself to different sonic characteristics. And I guess I'm not alone with that. And finally the treble has become increasingly smoother even after 250 hours, and the smoothing is still in progress.

The HD800's, when not playing sibilant tracks, sound pretty darn good when you don't A/B compare them to other phones.

Quote:

You could try a tube amp with your HD 800; you'll probably notice that you can renounce the equalizer. And it's not because the amp has such an enormous treble roll-off. – Currently I have a borrowed Mapletree Ear++ at my disposal. I think you'll like it with the HD 800. Symphonies and other orchestral works sound breathtakingly real and very, very organic and musical. But all in all I still prefer the Corda Symphony's unvarnished accuracy and detail. .

I've already tried the HD800 on an Audiotailor Jade (6AS7G, 12AX7) with zero improvement in the treble and zero reduction in sibilance. The ONLY thing that made a difference was the addition of a 6khz filter.

 

[JaZZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmellyGas /img/forum/go_quote.gif ...did you use a Q of 4.0 and a parametric eq?

Among others, yes. I varied Q between 4 and 8 and frequency between 5.8 and 6.3 kHz.


Quote:

I don't think the HD650 has a treble bias or a sibilance problem at all.

No – every headphone has different EQ demands. But so far none has responded really positively even to logical EQ attempts. This in contrast to different amps and sources.
.

 

[ricksome]

To the Original Poster: You had to know that this would become a "HEATED THREAD". I am a Senn fanboy but I am not here to threadcrap. I need to tip my hat to you. Too often when an eagerly awaited piece of equipment comes on the scene, that item is treated like the second coming and those that bow at it's alter get offended when it is not universally praised. You have walked the walk and talked the talk and there are some here that do not like your conclusions and feel the need to sling mud.. There are some here that respectfully disagree with you. I have not held nor heard the 800's. If that was on my shopping list, I would certainly keep your comments in mind. At the end of the day, I would let my own ears be the judge.

I have been using a very inexpensive portable amp for several years. This amp never ceases to amaze me. I have owned amps that cost up to 3 times as much. This blows them all away. High price does not guarantee high happiness. Thank you again for your post...Rick