[YtseJamer]

PUSHING THE AURAL ENVELOPE WITH HIGH-RES AUDIO EVANGELIST STEVEN WILSON

http://www.digitaltrends.com/features/interview-steven-wilson-on-high-res-hand-cannot-erase/

 

[Krutsch]

PUSHING THE AURAL ENVELOPE WITH HIGH-RES AUDIO EVANGELIST STEVEN WILSON

http://www.digitaltrends.com/features/interview-steven-wilson-on-high-res-hand-cannot-erase/

 
Wow. Well, I love Steven Wilson for his own music and his 5.1 mixes (e.g. Tears For Fears is amazing).
 
But statements like these:
 

One thing that shouldn’t be understated is that there is a psychological aspect to this. If you know you are listening to high-resolution files, there’s something quite comforting about it, you know? That’s also important. There’s information in those tracks that’s missing when you listen to a CD. Whether you can hear it or not, it is quite comforting to know that it is there.
 
I know we’ve talked about this before, but I think it’s worth saying again that all of this high-resolution stuff is pointless if the mastering sucks. Bad mastering is more of a problem than things being released at CD resolution, or even MP3s. What’s nice about this move to 96/24 is the amount of things that are coming out in flat transfers — no compression, and no mastering engineers ******* up the sound. That is a very, very good development in the history of music.

 
...show his talent for marketing. I mean, these statements will be hard to objectively discuss and will be music to the ears of subjectivists.

 

[Don Hills]

   
... I mean, these statements will be hard to objectively discuss and will be music to the ears of subjectivists.

 
What he says makes sense to me. You may not hear a difference with increased resolution, but you know it is there. Likewise, I enjoy driving my car more when I've just washed and waxed it, even though the performance is unchanged and I can't see the difference from inside the car.
 
And he's very much right about the mastering (and overall production) quality being much more important than the resolution.

 

[bigshot]

Steven Wilson's Jethro Tull remixes (War Child) and XTC (Drums and Wires) leave out important elements of the mix and alter the style of the music. I am a big fan of 5.1, but I have yet to hear a good Steven Wilson mix.

 

[RRod]

   
What he says makes sense to me. You may not hear a difference with increased resolution, but you know it is there. Likewise, I enjoy driving my car more when I've just washed and waxed it, even though the performance is unchanged and I can't see the difference from inside the car.
 
And he's very much right about the mastering (and overall production) quality being much more important than the resolution.

 
Yeah but when you sell your car do you sell it at twice the price because you waxed it?

 

[analogsurviver]

I remember the only reggae concert I attended live - not by the concert itself, not even by the artist, but by the statement the lead singer made during that concert in late 70s :
 

Computers are killing the music​

 ​

I have to admit I was shocked and completely clueless as to what he meant - vinyl records were still in the shops, CD was something no one outside Philips/Sony labs held in his/her hands, it was still relatively good regarding the sound quality.
 
And then came any number of synthesizers, CD, computers, DAWs .... - the possibility to do "more" :
 

 

[analogsurviver]

   
Yeah but when you sell your car do you sell it at twice the price because you waxed it?

One should not do that.
 
Regarding the psychology of knowing to have done everything - or at least "enough" - an example from cycling :
 
Any rider will tell you that it feels much different if he/she him/herself has cleaned and inspected the bike prior to a (n important) ride. True, even the pros have mechanics to do this job for them, it is their/YOUR head - a slight crack that developed on the frame during the last ride covered by even the slightest residue of a light shower during that last ride may well go unnoticed - and can cost you life during a high speed descent. Same goes for "slight" cuts in tyres, etc, etc.
 
It definitely feels different seating on a bike that has been prepared immaculately. And it helps extracting that last n-th degree of an effort - which would not have been attempted if the bike was soiled from the previous ride(s). 
 
An absolute fanatic regarding this was/is? Eddy Merckx. In his time, handlebar tape was fabric - and each day, his handlebars had to be graced by a new fresh tape.
 
Which objectively does not contribute (unless torn/worn/greasy - unlikely after a single day without a crash ) to the performance in the slightest. Yet it helped him to win.

 

[lamode]

 

Computers are killing the music​

 ​

 
Couldn't disagree more. Almost all of my favourite artists (other than classical/jazz) rely on electronic (and computer based) instruments to some degree.
 
The quality/price ratio of a modern DAW also puts serious sound quality in the hand of the masses, giving access to a lot more talented musicians who might otherwise miss out.
 
Digital audio is the best thing that ever happened to music.
 
And you keep willfully ignoring the fact that post production tools can be used well or poorly, that is not the fault of the tool but the fault of the engineer if they are used poorly, and there are many analogue equivalents of these tools too. Compression, for example, is NOT a 'digital problem'.

 

[analogsurviver]

   
Couldn't disagree more. Almost all of my favourite artists (other than classical/jazz) rely on electronic (and computer based) instruments to some degree.
 
The quality/price ratio of a modern DAW also puts serious sound quality in the hand of the masses, giving access to a lot more talented musicians who might otherwise miss out.
 
Digital audio is the best thing that ever happened to music.
 
And you keep willfully ignoring the fact that post production tools can be used well or poorly, that is not the fault of the tool but the fault of the engineer if they are used poorly, and there are many analogue equivalents of these tools too. Compression, for example, is NOT a 'digital problem'.

I can sympathize with you regarding the "dirty" musicians ( anyone who has to plug into any electrical device in order for us to hear him/her in the first place ).
 
I agree that digital has allowed the access to recording music to the masses - which is a good thing.
 
Post production tools can be used well or poorly, yet I resort to them only if no other course is available. In acoustic music, if correct from the playing/performance view, they are not necessary - at all. For those musicians that rely on electronic > computer based instruments, it is an unavoidable necessary evil.
 
Compression, at least what the recording industry has been throwing at us in the last 20 or so years, IS predominantely a "digital" problem - just go trough the Bob Katz video. It "democrately affordable" allowed for loudness wars - culminating in one evening of our composer association, dedicated to new electroacoustic works. Except for the work I helped to record for a friend composer, ALL of the rest had the dynamic range of 3,2,1, (yours) dB - and sounded interesting exactly the same as a cold cup of tea. Noise in duration of so and so much time, with the minimum "modulation" imaginable. Although "my" composition has been intentionally compressed in post production,  it  still clearly allowed to hear the interplay of what started as natural sound - and its electronically manipulated "echoes", if you will. 
 
One musical group that is borderline between "clean" and "dirty" is Oregon. They always have their own sound engineer with them - and HE is the key but invisible member - at least what concerns live shows. And they are perfectly aware of this fact...

 

[bfreedma]

  Steven Wilson's Jethro Tull remixes (War Child) and XTC (Drums and Wires) leave out important elements of the mix and alter the style of the music. I am a big fan of 5.1, but I have yet to hear a good Steven Wilson mix.

 
You should try some of his mixes for his own bands or Yes.  They are, IMO, the best 5.1 out there, particularly his solo work.

 

[Krutsch]

  Steven Wilson's Jethro Tull remixes (War Child) and XTC (Drums and Wires) leave out important elements of the mix and alter the style of the music. I am a big fan of 5.1, but I have yet to hear a good Steven Wilson mix.

 
OK, well, I have Steve Wilson's mix of Jethro Tull's "Benefit" and I like it, but I am not familiar enough with the original to know if something has deviated from the artist's original vision.
 
I am, however, very familiar with the Yes albums he's done and these are nice 5.1 mixes, IMO.
 
But, I think you stated earlier you aren't a fan of Yes, so ignoring Wilson's own work (like "Raven..." or "Storm Corrosion", also great as 5.1 mixes), let me recommend Tears For Fears "Songs From The Big Chair". When I first heard the 5.1 mix of that, I just played it a second time from beginning to end - very engaging surround mix of an album I know extremely well.
 
You should try some of his other stuff, if you like 5.1, because there just isn't that much 5.1 audio out there (outside of classical works) and Wilson is really trying to expand the audience for 5.1.

 

[U2Bono269]

  One should not do that.
 
Regarding the psychology of knowing to have done everything - or at least "enough" - an example from cycling :
 
Any rider will tell you that it feels much different if he/she him/herself has cleaned and inspected the bike prior to a (n important) ride. True, even the pros have mechanics to do this job for them, it is their/YOUR head - a slight crack that developed on the frame during the last ride covered by even the slightest residue of a light shower during that last ride may well go unnoticed - and can cost you life during a high speed descent. Same goes for "slight" cuts in tyres, etc, etc.
 
It definitely feels different seating on a bike that has been prepared immaculately. And it helps extracting that last n-th degree of an effort - which would not have been attempted if the bike was soiled from the previous ride(s). 
 
An absolute fanatic regarding this was/is? Eddy Merckx. In his time, handlebar tape was fabric - and each day, his handlebars had to be graced by a new fresh tape.
 
Which objectively does not contribute (unless torn/worn/greasy - unlikely after a single day without a crash ) to the performance in the slightest. Yet it helped him to win.

I agree with all of this. Tiny things can change our perception of how we hear or see. And what ultimately matters is our perception. I do find it nice to think that my digital files are bit-perfect representations of my CDs. And it's also nice to think that the couple of HD albums I have are (in theory at least) representations of what my favorite bands recorded in the studio.
 
Yes, it's annoying and wrong that the cost of high-res music is so high. But I do think it might one day be worth it with the right technology. I know someone (bigshot maybe??) argued that our ears can't hear it so any new technologies would be worthless. Still, there are things we can't see with our eyes because we lack the resolution, but there are numerous instruments like microscopes and such that allow us to see things we couldn't normally see. It may sound farfetched, but we don't know what kind of audio technology will exist next year, let alone 10 or 20 years from now. If such a thing turned out true, it would be most likely be nothing like we imagine and would be something completely out of the box.
 
I believe that at this time we are unable to hear a difference between 16bit and 24bit files. And in the meantime, if it increases your enjoyment of music for any reason at all (and you can afford it), then go for it. It's worthwhile if someone thinks it's worthwhile.

 

[sonitus mirus]

 
I believe that at this time we are unable to hear a difference between 16bit and 24bit files. And in the meantime, if it increases your enjoyment of music for any reason at all (and you can afford it), then go for it. It's worthwhile if someone thinks it's worthwhile.

 
I'm guessing from the use of italics that you assume we may somehow develop superior hearing abilities that would change this view?  
 
If the reason is purely psychological, it is probably not worthwhile to anyone except the person making money on a sale. 

 

[bigshot]

Inaudible is inaudible.

 

[Krutsch]

http://theghostinthemp3.com/theghostinthemp3.html
 
Interesting read and I am eager to hear the samples, when I can take the time.