[Brooko]

Quote:

I don't go to meet's as I'm socially detached and all that. Plus I am on the very young side of things.
 

 
That mate is simply no excuse.  From what I see - the Head-Fi family is for the most part very friendly and accommodating.  Get outside your comfort zone.  Go to a meet. You'll get to hear some great gear, satisfy some of your audio curiousity, and may have the chance of meeting someone who could become a lifelong friend.  What do you have to lose?
 
Quote:

Thanks for your help, I'll see about what I can do to sell my E17 unit and then buy the NFB 12.1 from Audio Gd I already have a position on my desk that would fit it very well.

 
Make sure that you explore all options first.  I do think it is great value - but give it a few days to see if anyone gives you any better options.  The NFB-12 is great for me and other owners (eg Tilpo).  But you never know - someone else may have something even better.  If you don't get any better options by the end of the week, then go for it.

 

[Brooko]

Quote:

I've never played with these knobed items. Is there a problem with me accidentally hitting the knob and overloading my equipment?

 
Shouldn't be.  You need to actually turn it (there is a little resistance).  It's also good habit to get into to always check your volume (and gain switch) before you plug anything.

 

[bowei006]

Quote:

 
That mate is simply no excuse.  From what I see - the Head-Fi family is for the most part very friendly and accommodating.  Get outside your comfort zone.  Go to a meet. You'll get to hear some great gear, satisfy some of your audio curiousity, and may have the chance of meeting someone who could become a lifelong friend.  What do you have to lose?
 
 
Make sure that you explore all options first.  I do think it is great value - but give it a few days to see if anyone gives you any better options.  The NFB-12 is great for me and other owners (eg Tilpo).  But you never know - someone else may have something even better.  If you don't get any better options by the end of the week, then go for it.

Definately of course I'm posting it now so I have time to check others out The first unit you know of  always has a big impact on further descisions sadly, but I wil try to not let my NFB 12.1 bias get in the way of other products.
 
Have you heard the Maverick Tube Magic D1? That one is the most famous one at this range.
 
 
 
 
There is no excuse I guess. It would be quite weird. I'm 18 and the others are all .... 40 from what I see in photo's. I don't know. I will try very hard though.

 

[Brooko]

Quote:

Definately of course I'm posting it now so I have time to check others out The first unit you know of  always has a big impact on further descisions sadly, but I wil try to not let my NFB 12.1 bias get in the way of other products.
 
Have you heard the Maverick Tube Magic D1? That one is the most famous one at this range.
____________________________________
 
There is no excuse I guess. It would be quite weird. I'm 18 and the others are all .... 40 from what I see in photo's. I don't know. I will try very hard though.

 
Nope - I think I summarised the amps / dacs I heard a few posts ago.  Must be a MTM D1 review thread around somewhere though.
 
Re meets - well you're conversing pretty naturally with me - I'm mid 40s - and what makes you think I'd be difficult to speak to in person if you're managing OK now?  Trust me - you have an opportunity I'd love to have - don't waste it.

 

[bowei006]

Quote:

 
Nope - I think I summarised the amps / dacs I heard a few posts ago.  Must be a MTM D1 review thread around somewhere though.
 
Re meets - well you're conversing pretty naturally with me - I'm mid 40s - and what makes you think I'd be difficult to speak to in person if you're managing OK now?  Trust me - you have an opportunity I'd love to have - don't waste it.

Well the way people our age get treated in real life by people older. The he's a kid attitude I give to the smaller kids myelf.
 
It's hard to tell on the internet. Most of my companions on our member's thread here all kinda "sound" the same as the langauge used and what not is very similar. However, in real life that is not the case.
 
I guess I'll man up and go to one the next time it shows up near me. Shouldn't be too far right? Ha ha
 
Anyway, anybody know any other suggestions to throw into the mix?
 
So far
Matrix Mstage
O2/ODAC
MTM D1
NFB 12.1
 
I don't need portable units.

 

[Brooko]

For some ight reading - http://www.head-fi.org/search.php?search=dac+%2B+amp+under+250

 

[bowei006]

Thank you Hifiman EF2 is on the list
 
I have asked another user that had the Audinist MX1 and E10 and he said in his opinion he liked the E10 better :/
 
I also had a member that had the D10 ibasso that said he liked the NFB 12 better. Jeez it's getting hard.
 
 
Anyway, tomorrow is another day I'm still looking.
 

 
 
And regarding this pic,
 
What are the "filters" mentioned. 

 

[wilky61]

Sounds out of your price range, IMO. For $280, you can buy the version that includes the USB DAC, but here is what chicolom said to me about it the other day:
"While the M-stage is a good amp, the DAC in the M-stage won't be as good as the one in the E17."
 
To which I replied:
"So, do you think I may be disappointed in the M-Stage?"
 
He said:
"Not with the amp, but it only has a $30 DAC in it, so I don't think it's fair to judge its performance based off using it's own DAC.  I think it's better paired with an external DAC."
 
So you could go with the $250 M-Stage without the USB DAC and maybe you could opt for a $150 HRT Music Streamer II, for example, but this is a good $150 or so above the price level of that GD Audio NFB 12.1 you/brooko have been discussing. And not even the top of the line HRT MS2+ at that. And it only has a single USB input.
 
I have to admit, that NFB 12.1 sounds pretty sweet to me, for its price. But what do I know?

 
 
Quote:

Matrix Mstage

 

[bowei006]

Quote:

Sounds out of your price range, IMO. For $280, you can buy the version that includes the USB DAC, but here is what chicolom said to me about it the other day:
"While the M-stage is a good amp, the DAC in the M-stage won't be as good as the one in the E17."
 
To which I replied:
"So, do you think I may be disappointed in the M-Stage?"
 
He said:
"Not with the amp, but it only has a $30 DAC in it, so I don't think it's fair to judge its performance based off using it's own DAC.  I think it's better paired with an external DAC."
 
So you could go with the $250 M-Stage without the USB DAC and maybe you could opt for a $150 HRT Music Streamer II, for example, but this is a good $150 or so above the price level of that GD Audio NFB 12.1 you/brooko have been discussing. And not even the top of the line HRT MS2+ at that. And it only has a single USB input.
 
I have to admit, that NFB 12.1 sounds pretty sweet to me, for its price. But what do I know?

 
 

ಠ_ಠ
 
The NFB 12 is tops right now because it has everything for $200.
 
I heard about the $30 DAC as well and it won't be worth it to me. I can easily get another Tube or whatever for the amp price they are asking. My wallet isn't that deep.

 

[captouch]

The O2/ODAC is $285 + shipping on JDS, so a good $50-70 more expensive. I also don't have anything against this option, but agree that it's non-trivially more expensive, has fewer connectivity options, and looks like something you'd find on a lab bench versus in your audio rack (not that looks are that important, but still. . .). The connection options (3.5mm vs 6.5mm, lack of RCA outputs, etc) are also not ideal for a non-portable setup.

I'm actually intrigued by the DAC part, but from what I've read, the O2 isn't really meant/recommended for orthodynamics, so it wouldn't be ideal for me since most of my listening these days is on HE-5LE's.

 

[chrislangley4253]

Chris

Please enlighten me - which Audio-gd gear have you actually heard?

Sparrow, with different op amps. It is by far the worst piece of gear I have listened to. I hated selling it, and did so as cheaply as I could stomach

Why in your opinion was the Audio GD snake oil? The Sparrow bascically?

A brief look at their website and their techniques and use of buzzwords. Everything about audio GD screams "hey, something is fishy here".

That is my thing right now. Sadly my audiophile journey has been filled with excitement and disapointement. After learning what and how to hear, and aceing a blind ABX mp3 and lossless test, I gotta say. There are many times I wish to stay ignorant. So much stuff doesn't sound as good while others sound TOO good.

Having a product slamed isn't good but I do like to read them. Head-Fi bias and FOTM is quite sad but good at the same time. It details Head-Fi's growth, but also the loss of traditional values. 

http://www.head-fi.org/t/475618/matrix-m-stage-amp-review-simple-cheap-and-excellent/2835#post_8342549

This is also quite weird. Everyone is differnt, but it was weird to read. Have you heard the HRT Streamer II?

I am also quite happy right now. Kinda wish I could have heard a AHD 2000 but, hey, ignorance is bliss..right?

just wanted to say, i have heard good things about the hrt

Ah - sorry - should have checked your profile first Chris (call me lazy).

Now if I can remember correctly, you've never heard the NFB-12, or any other Audio-gd gear besides the Sparrow for that matter.  So how you can (based on one experience) call all the rest of the Audio-gd gear "snake oil" - is perhaps a little beyond me.  Perhaps you're just trumpeting someone else's comments perhaps?  I also cannot remember 'your hero' ever reviewing any of the Audio-gd gear either.  No matter - it's still the worst sort of trolling IMO.  I'll leave it at that.

Perhaps let's put it in perspective.  If we combine the ODAC and O2 - I think it'll cost around $240 combined.  It doesn't have the aesthetics, the versatility (inputs), the outputs, or the ability to tailor the sound individually via filter.  It's roughly the same price - oh but apparently the O2/ODAC measures better .........

Sorry mate - respectully - I'll stick with what I have.  I like the sound and features - no snake oil here.

Nah, I'm not a name caller.

I call their products snake oil. Because that is exactly what they sell. Hype and flavor of the month type designs and parts. They design by ear and I had a real bad experience with the sparrow. The company is sketchy, and I don't really see how anyone can argue otherwise. Does that mean the gear can't sound okay or even great? No. It just means I disagree with how they do things.

My hero is dead

Nwavguy has not reviewed any audio GD gear. I don't need a review to have an opinion of the company and I am free to speak my opinion (i think).

It doesn't have those things and that is part of the appeal to me. I don't need those things, whatsoever. I agree the amp could look better and have more options. I love it nonetheless.

I wasn't trying to convince you otherwise, simply making my honest suggestion to OP.

Hero? Who?

I looked at the combo as well, and gave it some thought, but from what Tilpo and I have talked about, I like subjective, not objective. I would rather it sound fun than accurate. Lord strike me down. There are many types of audiophilia and what not. But accurate and neutral and objectivaly accurate does NOT go well with my cursed colored beyond repair music I listen to 80% of the time. My gear is accurate and objective enough close to the line of neutral that I can say this. I don't own a HD800 or LCD 3 or anything but like you say. The changes are small but noticeable and I am close enough really. My music is crap on most headphones. I have tried them with headphones after headphones(fourth one know) and guess what. The headphone that performs the best with those type of music is not a headphone but an $20 earbud. The SoundMagic PL11. It has the in your face vocals that are colored and subdued to who knows where, the details are not there..and it's laughable sonically. But it is good for the music I listen to.

One should be an audiophile... not the dude that listens to everything, follows price and let's subjective reviews make them think otherwise. Yes, what I am doing right now is also basing it off subjective reviews from people that have never heard EVERY $200 desktop amp on the market or compared them to let me know what is what and they don't have my tastes. But how I go about reading and deciding on them is the best I can do with so little tools at my disposale

This makes no sense. You shouldn't get colored, imprecise gear because it makes your poor music more listenable. Get transparent, accurate gear.. and colored, forgiving headphones.

Bowei - you're in the US right?  Get yourself to a meet,  You have the opportunity - sadlly because of my location, I don't.  Go listen to the gear - then form your opinion.

BTW - on the ABX you did - you did it once my friend - on someone else's files.  Try this.  Get one of your CD's from a band you know really well.  Rip it to lossless at best quality.  Then transcode a copy to 256aac, and try again (make sure they are volume matched).

I'm not pointing the next bit at you OK - people bandy around snakeoil comments all the time - yet very few are willing to admit that they don't have superman's hearing.  Enlightenment., and willing to admit you don't have golden ears actually opens a lot more doors than it closes.  I found Chris's comments really interesting - but I guess I have the benefit of age and experience.  Believe me your perspective changes a lot over time - for one, life is too short to lie to yourself.  For a second, you get to appreciate real value when you've experienced both life and death (making a long-term marriage work, holding someone that you've helped create, having someone die in your arms - yep done all three).  Getting back to audio, and the debate at hand ...... if the O2/ODAC was cheaper, offered same features, and better or same sound - I'd be all over it.  But it's the same price, has less features, doesn't look as good, and I have zero interest (especially knowing how close sonically well designed dacs and amps can sound).  That's not snake-oil.  It's reality.  Snake-oil would be if they were making outrageous claims and selling the NFB-12 for $600-700.  When I last checked, at sub $250, I can't think of a better value dac/amp with the features it has - anywhere.

I can't tell v0 from Flac when I rip and transcode myself. Also, I mentioned I couldn't tell the matrix and o2 apart. I picked the o2 over the matrix for reasons other than sound.

Mighty assumptions on your part Brooko. I am 19 but I have lived a hard life. I have been through more than most people (yeah, even the old ones). I do not lie to anyone (including myself). I have been in 1 relationship, which I am still in. I watched my brother (aforementioned hero and the only male figure in my life) take his last breaths a year and a half ago. An invincible man struken down with cancer. Every day of my life is filled with debilitating, unexplainable body pain. I have lived plenty of life friend, and I am wise far beyond my years. I'm not even sour, your assumptions would typically be right for someone my age, but not when it comes to me. I am sorry, but you are just flat out wrong for invalidating me based on my age and lack of life experience. Last I checked, none of this had anything to do with what we are discussing. Nope, I haven't had a kid, and I won't, I'm pretty sure my opinion in audio should still be valid.

http://www.head-fi.org/t/587912/fiio-e17-alpen-first-impression-final-thought
This? Head-Fi's longest thread on E17's? Yeah I'll give it a read and see if it has what I want.

Lol. I'm trolling. I have it.

I have thought about doing that, I will do it again then :/

I don't go to meet's as I'm socially detached and all that. Plus I am on the very young side of things.

That is a good post. Wow, having someone die in your arms. :'( I had a close friend die recently, having that happen in my arms would devastate me.

$230 for this really isn't bad I guess. Plus I'll use this to loosen up on the money. I am too ....tight lipped around my money and don't try to spend. All in all, I've only personally spent about $400 total on my audio gear. Some of you may go :O due to the gear I have but I got them all for cheaps.

I am quite interested in learning and reading on the O2 and ODAC, but it just has some qualities I don't like about it.

Thanks for your help, I'll see about what I can do to sell my E17 unit and then buy the NFB 12.1 from Audio Gd I already have a position on my desk that would fit it very well. 

Don't let people judge you for being old. Educate yourself and catch em off guard. Money is important, don't let people tell you otherwise. Being tight with your money is generally good, especially at this age.

What qualities don't you like?

Designer of O2/ODAC.

I just wanted to point out to Chris what snake-oil actually means.  If the NFB-12 has better features, sounds arguably as good, has better form and inputs, and costs the same - then his comments don't gel.

Thanks, but I don't use words I don't understand. I have been reading on a collegiate level since grade school. Perhaps you should browse audio GD's site and brush up on some sound science and then tell me what is and is not snake oil. I am educated well enough to know it when I see it.

Oh that's what you meant. I don't really like NwavGuy's attitude. He definately is a valuable audio enthusiast who's input is great, but his attitude and agressive assertive hot headed posts weren't really....charming for his goal.

For $200 this DOES sound quite good. Plus the insides are the best "looking" out of all the one's I've seen.

I've never played with these knobed items. Is there a problem with me accidentally hitting the knob and overloading my equipment?

I don't like his attitude either, but I feel it is warranted. Never judge a design based on how the internals "look".

That mate is simply no excuse.  From what I see - the Head-Fi family is for the most part very friendly and accommodating.  Get outside your comfort zone.  Go to a meet. You'll get to hear some great gear, satisfy some of your audio curiousity, and may have the chance of meeting someone who could become a lifelong friend.  What do you have to lose?


Make sure that you explore all options first.  I do think it is great value - but give it a few days to see if anyone gives you any better options.  The NFB-12 is great for me and other owners (eg Tilpo).  But you never know - someone else may have something even better.  If you don't get any better options by the end of the week, then go for it.

good advice.. about getting out and about.

Shouldn't be.  You need to actually turn it (there is a little resistance).  It's also good habit to get into to always check your volume (and gain switch) before you plug anything.

More solid advice.

Definately of course I'm posting it now so I have time to check others out The first unit you know of  always has a big impact on further descisions sadly, but I wil try to not let my NFB 12.1 bias get in the way of other products.

Have you heard the Maverick Tube Magic D1? That one is the most famous one at this range.




There is no excuse I guess. It would be quite weird. I'm 18 and the others are all .... 40 from what I see in photo's. I don't know. I will try very hard though.

19 here.. got into the hobby at 16. You're fine.


P.S. please excuse any errors. I am replying on a phone. Not the easiest to do.

 

[bowei006]

I give you mad props for comming back and writing that on a phone. Im on a phone right now as well.

What makes you say snakeoil on their site?

 

[Brooko]

Quote:

Various ......

 
Chris - As you said you're entitiled to your opinion - but I'll state again - without listening to the NFB-12, and making sweeping suggestions based on your experience with their lowest end budget dac/amp - I still find your statements as potentially misleading as what you are arguing against.
 
My other comments were more to do with the fact that a combination of age and experience does give you a different perspective on life.  If you've already come to similar (or indeed different) conclusions - great.  But as you so correctly put, it doesn't really influence the current debate.  I find it weird though that you automatically thought I was having a crack at you because of it.  Let's leave this here though - you can continue via PM if you want to.
 
As you also stated - you are well educated (I went beyond college, but that's semantics) - and know exactly what snake-oil is.  As you're the one accusing Audio-gd, and you have the clear knowledge of why that accusation is valid - the onus is actually on you to state clearly what claims they have made, and why the snake-oil claim specifically applies to the NFB-12.  What does it deliver (against the website claims), and where does it fall down (where is the snake-oil).  Please go into it in detail.
Here's their page http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/Headphoneamp/NFB12/NFB12EN.htm
And please note - the one flowery comment there is someone else's quote - not Audio-gd's claim.

 

[KimLaroux]

Audioengine D1
$169
 
Maverick Audio D1
$200

 
Have you looked into these?
 
I own the NFB-12. The only difference I hear between it and my laptop's audio card is a totally black background. Oh and the obvious gain in power the NFB-12 has over PC audio. The audio-gd has a very powerful amplifier. I can't make out any difference between the NFB-12 filters.
 
I love the NFB-12's features though. I have speakers connected to it's line out. Being able to toggle between speakers and headphones with a switch, without unplugging anything, is a great feature.

 

[captouch]

I give you mad props for comming back and writing that on a phone. Im on a phone right now as well.
What makes you say snakeoil on their site?

I think of snakeoil as something is usually overpriced (for what it actually is) and claims to address or solve issues that it doesn't objectively have any beneficial effect on, other than psychological.

Hard to see how that applies to NFB-12, as it's value priced, everything on it functionally works for its designed purpose, and those extra features (digital filter options in particular) really do make a difference.

The only thing I can see on the site that's a little deceiving is that they re-use that Darko quote for many products, even though the review was for a particular product - that should be clearer.

When you go from the $200 products to the multi $1000's of $ products, that's where you could argue snake oil on those ultra-expensive power cords, interconnects, etc. Not to start that debate, but snake oil doesn't seem applicable here.