[Khanate]

Why such a simple test though?

There must be some way to send a pre-determined signal through a cable, plot the output and compare it to the other one. This would show a difference in signal output which would result in a difference in sound output... or not show a difference.

A folded test plays with the brain and can make you focus too much on the wrong detail. I think even if the guy gets all inversed it should still make him a winner.

 

[da_bradler]

I don't understand how this is any different then how people SWEAR that spending 1000+ dollars on a cable replacement for there sen650s makes a difference? headphones are just little speakers so in theory since there smaller speakers carrying less current then the cable should be even less important then it is for full size speakers.

Honestly I don't know because I've never done a cable replacement or comparing before.

 

[ph0rk]

This will be interesting. I lean one way (as I'm sure most of us do, one way or the other).

Fremer seems to be risking his rep for this contest.

for comedy, see: http://www.high-endaudio.com/RR-FREMER.html

 

[hciman77]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khanate /img/forum/go_quote.gif Why such a simple test though? There must be some way to send a pre-determined signal through a cable, plot the output and compare it to the other one. This would show a difference in signal output which would result in a difference in sound output... or not show a difference.

Indeed, however there is a difference between measurable and audible. For instance the difference between a SNR of 96db and an SNR of 95db is measurable (easy) but is it audible ?

In any case I would hope that the cable responses are measured (as well) - i.e if a cable is tweaked to cause a 3db roll off at 14k then that may very well be audible. Cable cannot add, it can only take away.

When Monster demo their cables against vanilla cables they use 100 ft runs of cable and compare their 12 gauge against generic 18 or 24 gauge which easily shows the signal loss due to significantly higher resistance...

My point, eventually, is that you could very easily create audibly different cables with a bit of legerdemain, but you would be making a technically worse cable.

 

[Sarchi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hciman77 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Indeed, however there is a difference between measurable and audible. For instance the difference between a SNR of 96db and an SNR of 95db is measurable (easy) but is it audible ? In any case I would hope that the cable responses are measured (as well) - i.e if a cable is tweaked to cause a 3db roll off at 14k then that may very well be audible. Cable cannot add, it can only take away. When Monster demo their cables against vanilla cables they use 100 ft runs of cable and compare their 12 gauge against generic 18 or 24 gauge which easily shows the signal loss due to significantly higher resistance... My point, eventually, is that you could very easily create audibly different cables with a bit of legerdemain, but you would be making a technically worse cable.

Reading your post carefully I find both sides of the cable argument represented. One side says signal loss is the only (potential) difference-- and this should be measurable. The other side suggests cables can add tonal 'improvements' by playing with frequency response, which is probably pretty hard to measure, and room-specific.

This combined with the egos involved, is what gives this challenge very little chance of coming off without a hitch....the 'results' will be argued ad nauseum until meaningless. IMO
(that is, if it ever even gets off the ground)

 

[Konig]

Quote:

Originally Posted by markl /img/forum/go_quote.gif It's funny, but I've long been a big supporter/fan of Randi. I was a subscriber to Skeptical Enquirer when I was a lad of 16. As an atheist and believer in science, I'm inclined to side with those guys more often than not. The chief difference between the things the skeptics usually target and audio cables is that everything else they oppose is basically untestable. Ghosts? UFOs? God? But the differences audio cables can make can be experienced by anyone-- just swap them in and out. Try that with a "ghost". Still I predict this test will solve or prove nothing. On the one hand, Fremer is about as good a choice for "golden ears" as you could expect at least in terms of prestige within the industry. I would prefer we were testing a pair of audio cables he specifically endorsed as being superior to his ears. IMHO, Randi should give Fremer every possible chance to get it right, rather than imposing rules or restrictions that would make it impossible for anyone to discern a difference and muddy the waters. Ideal test bed would be Fremer's own system, in his house, without any additional "black boxes" added if possible. Putting him in some unfamiliar room with unfamiliar gear that may be absolutely awful will not prove anything. In any case, even the most hard-boiled skeptics will have to admit that even if Fremer "fails" in the test, this is hardly conclusive proof that cables make no difference. Assemble a team of 30+ Michael Fremer's who are acknowledged esteemed "golden ears" in the field and then run the same test on them. That's what you need to begin to achieve statistical significance.

maybe randi just wants to prove that fremer is not a golden ear

 

[Khanate]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hciman77 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Indeed, however there is a difference between measurable and audible. For instance the difference between a SNR of 96db and an SNR of 95db is measurable (easy) but is it audible ? In any case I would hope that the cable responses are measured (as well) - i.e if a cable is tweaked to cause a 3db roll off at 14k then that may very well be audible. Cable cannot add, it can only take away.

Well even if it isn't audible it would show one cable is better than the other.

At the end of the line its how much loss you get through plugs, amps, source, cables... If you take a 400$ ipod setup and a 1250000$ setup there might not be that much difference in each individual item, but there might be at the end.

I can't think of the blind folded test as a accurate test to measure anything and is far from being scientific in any case... This is just ego vs ego.

PS: notice the might as my setup is not even worth 400$ at the moment hehe.

 

[bigshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khanate /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well even if it isn't audible it would show one cable is better than the other.

If the difference isn't audible, one can't be better than the other. It can only MEASURE better. The numbers that matter are the ones you can hear.

See ya
Steve

 

[Febs]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khanate /img/forum/go_quote.gif I can't think of the blind folded test as a accurate test to measure anything and is far from being scientific in any case... This is just ego vs ego.

It is a "double-blind test," not a "blind folded test." You really should do some reading and develop some understanding of what this means before you comment further.

 

[earwicker7]

"We'll beat anyone's advertised price or your mattress is FREE!"

That's what this reminds me of. It's very easy to come up with an attention-grabbing headline like this. Only problem is, since mattress production companies only make specific models for specific showrooms (ie, there's no crossover between different showroom companies), there is no chance you're ever going to get a free mattress. What you'll hear instead is "Well, we don't stock that mattress that the other place sells for $500, so you can't say they beat our prices, even though our cheapest mattress is $1,000." And the law will side with them when they say no free mattress.

This event will never take place... Randi probably has hundreds of "But that's not the same mattress!" escape clauses.

Remember, the last time someone challenged Fremer to a similar test (the laughable claim that nobody can hear the difference between amps as they all sound the same) Fremer was able to pick the correct amp 5 out of 5 times. The challenger said it was a fluke and backed out.

 

[philodox]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot /img/forum/go_quote.gif According to Gizmodo, the famed subjectivist Stereophile audiophile reviewer Michael Fremer has accepted James Randi's challenge to discern the difference between Monster speaker cables and $7K Pear speaker cables.

So, if he fails we know that the difference between Monster speaker cables and Pear speaker cables is negligible or nonexistent. It still doesn't prove that all cables are equal.

This will be interesting to see, but it is not going to convince a 'skeptic' if Fremer comes out on top or convince a 'believer' if Randi wins.

 

[earwicker7]

Wow, I'm looking over this guy's website... you all should check this out http://forums.randi.org/forumdisplay.php?f=43.

He has a team of people who look over all of the applicants. Of course, many of them are nuts, but the fact is (as will be apparent if you follow the above link) that anyone who gets close to the "challenge" is summarily dismissed.

There will be no challenge, this guy is as big of a fake as the people he purports to expose.

 

[Chu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by earwicker7 /img/forum/go_quote.gif He has a team of people who look over all of the applicants. Of course, many of them are nuts, but the fact is (as will be apparent if you follow the above link) that anyone who gets close to the "challenge" is summarily dismissed.

Do you have a specific example?

 

[Chu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by philodox /img/forum/go_quote.gif This will be interesting to see, but it is not going to convince a 'skeptic' if Fremer comes out on top or convince a 'believer' if Randi wins.

I don't think this is necessarily true. This is obviously not going to convince any believer simply because they do not believe in DBT testing, or they can simply take the narrowest possible interpretations ranging from "Pear cables are bunk" to "Fremer is a fraud." That doesn't make them necessary false interpretations mind you

Skeptics are a bit different. Right now the burden of proof is on the believers. If Fremer passes then the burden passes, and the "skeptics" need to figure out exactly what happened or cede their claim.

The nature of the debate changes significantly. Considering how well documented this will be the wiggle room is going to be very very small.

 

[LawnGnome]

Quote:

Originally Posted by earwicker7 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Wow, I'm looking over this guy's website... you all should check this out http://forums.randi.org/forumdisplay.php?f=43. He has a team of people who look over all of the applicants. Of course, many of them are nuts, but the fact is (as will be apparent if you follow the above link) that anyone who gets close to the "challenge" is summarily dismissed. There will be no challenge, this guy is as big of a fake as the people he purports to expose.

If you read through those, you will find out when it comes time to actual start setting up the test, often the applicant fails to respond. the JREF then tries to contact them several times for 1 year, after which their file is closed.

There is already even a test scheduled for the beginning of November.

So there goes that claim of yours.