[Chu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig /img/forum/go_quote.gif dont u think his reputation actually costs more? If im Fremer i would have accepted the challenge but ultimately disagreed with randi on test conditions to salvage some pride. Frankly i dont see the issue with test location and equipment. Shouldnt the test be carried out at the same place where Fremer carried out his review of the product?

It would be extremely hard to blind your average listening room, especially considering that most these days proudly display their cables instead of trying to hide them as in ages past. Most things like dampening curtains would definitely change the acoustics of the room, and it would be extremely hard to obscufate the cables themselves because of the obvious aftermarket terminators used.

It'll be interesting to see what they agree to, and what the sticking points are if they do not.

Really though, if the sticking point is that to properly conduct the test it needs to done one ones own system because of the subtle acclimation of one to their own system, I hope I never see a cable review from a trade show again.

 

[OverlordXenu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chu /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm pretty sure you need to: 1. Read the article in the op 2. Read more about double blind tests in general before you keep posting in this thread

I was trying to say he was a blind believer.

I want Randi to succeed.

 

[RedLeader]

and this is why we don't like DBT here at headfi, people get angry at each other. Now lets all calm down and go listen to some music.

 

[Superpredator]

Quote:

Originally Posted by OverlordXenu /img/forum/go_quote.gif I was trying to say he was a blind believer.

I thought of using the T-shirt image you did, but I believe I found a better one. The blindfold must be helping my imagination and creativity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OverlordXenu /img/forum/go_quote.gif I want Randi to succeed.

I just want to laugh at someone in the end, or perhaps see a YouTube video of Randi biting Michael Fremer's ear off.

 

[goldenratiophi]

Hmm, in some ways it would be cool for Fremer to win just because of all the people that don't even believe that different amps/speakers/headphones matter get totally owned by Fremer winning. But then again, if Fremer lost that would mean that I could happily go on with old Radioshack and Monster cables.

 

[markl]

It's funny, but I've long been a big supporter/fan of Randi. I was a subscriber to Skeptical Enquirer when I was a lad of 16. As an atheist and believer in science, I'm inclined to side with those guys more often than not.

The chief difference between the things the skeptics usually target and audio cables is that everything else they oppose is basically untestable. Ghosts? UFOs? God?

But the differences audio cables can make can be experienced by anyone-- just swap them in and out. Try that with a "ghost".

Still I predict this test will solve or prove nothing. On the one hand, Fremer is about as good a choice for "golden ears" as you could expect at least in terms of prestige within the industry. I would prefer we were testing a pair of audio cables he specifically endorsed as being superior to his ears. IMHO, Randi should give Fremer every possible chance to get it right, rather than imposing rules or restrictions that would make it impossible for anyone to discern a difference and muddy the waters.

Ideal test bed would be Fremer's own system, in his house, without any additional "black boxes" added if possible. Putting him in some unfamiliar room with unfamiliar gear that may be absolutely awful will not prove anything.

In any case, even the most hard-boiled skeptics will have to admit that even if Fremer "fails" in the test, this is hardly conclusive proof that cables make no difference. Assemble a team of 30+ Michael Fremer's who are acknowledged esteemed "golden ears" in the field and then run the same test on them. That's what you need to begin to achieve statistical significance.

 

[riffer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by goldenratiophi /img/forum/go_quote.gif Hmm, in some ways it would be cool for Fremer to win just because of all the people that don't even believe that different amps/speakers/headphones matter get totally owned by Fremer winning. But then again, if Fremer lost that would mean that I could happily go on with old Radioshack and Monster cables.

Don't worry, if Fremer loses, the true believers will just claim that he has a tin ear and go on buying $$$$ cables

Me, I wouldn't care either way, except that two people I respect will be going head to head and one will come out a loser

 

[bigshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by markl /img/forum/go_quote.gif ences audio cables can make can be experienced by anyone-- just swap them in and out.

That's exactly what the test is going to do. I'm not so sure it is going to be as easy as you make it sound.

See ya
Steve

 

[bigshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by riffer /img/forum/go_quote.gif Don't worry, if Fremer loses, the true believers will just claim that he has a tin ear and go on buying $$$$ cables

Well, there's another side to that too... Assuming Fremer wins, everyone will have to admit that there is a difference. But the question of whether the difference is an improvement or whether it is worth the cost will still remain.

I've got my bet on Randi. Fremer hasn't impressed me. I think he's in the pocket of the high end audio manufacturers. If he is smart, he'll realize that Randi is setting him up so he can't cheat the results. He'll scream bloody murder that he couldn't have the test conducted just his way. If he's dumb, he'll agree to the controls and he'll realize after it's all over that he is a chump. Then he'll scream bloody murder that the test wasn't conducted just his way.

See ya
Steve

 

[Superpredator]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well, there's another side to that too... Assuming Fremer wins, everyone will have to admit that there is a difference. But the question of whether the difference is an improvement or whether it is worth the cost will still remain.

That's what I was getting at above. When Fremer "wins" or "loses" I think people whose beliefs (or experience) are challenged will cite whatever they can to continue believing what they want. Hopefully the methods are fair and the test transparent enough that no one can find a specific reason to doubt its result beyond the lack of statistical significance markl mentioned.

 

[Chu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by markl /img/forum/go_quote.gif Putting him in some unfamiliar room with unfamiliar gear that may be absolutely awful will not prove anything.

Why wouldn't it? Some of the claims made regarding cables are extremely bold.

First thing that comes to mind (admittedly thanks to Patrick) are the Odin vs. Valhalla comparisons made at the Hong Kong trade show where people were literally blown away. On completely alien systems and listening environments.

I would have to dig a bit, but I know I've read other trade show reports and factory tours on 6moons and positive-feedback with similar claims -- immediate differences on foreign systems. If stereophile's search was a little more capable (or I had more time to dig) I'm sure I could find similar there as well.

On a smaller scale, at Head-Fi meets people who try cable swapping on the HD600/650 notice immediate difference. On other people's systems.

Also, I highly doubt the gear is going to be "absolutely awful." The test is agreed and negotiated by both parties. Fremer will know full well what he's listening to beforehand, and considering the claims being tested there is no reason for Randi to not let him use his own gear (albeit for testing reasons maybe in a foreign environment).

 

[Chu]

Really though in the end this might all just be a brilliant advertising campaign for Pear Audio

Even if he doesn't go through with the test the name is probably embedded in a lot of heads now. I know I never heard of them before this.

 

[Sarchi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chu /img/forum/go_quote.gif Really though in the end this might all just be a brilliant advertising campaign for Pear Audio Even if he doesn't go through with the test the name is probably embedded in a lot of heads now. I know I never heard of them before this.

I agree, and it'll be great publicity for Stereophile also. I expect John Atkinson will jump in soon, and this is all you'll be reading about in magazines, blogs and forums for the next 8 months. Lord, please let it end.

 

[riffer]

I wonder if they will publish the brand of cable that they use in the test?

 

[Chu]

Something that went right over my head . . .

Quote:

Fremer has also asked that interconnects be tested in addition to loudspeaker cables unless James Randi will concede that they affect sound quality.

That's a really interesting assertion, because blinding ICs is something that could be done with some work in Fremer's own listening room.