[cosmopragma]

Quote:

Originally Posted by budburma /img/forum/go_quote.gif having been a research medicinal chemist with an international pharmaceutical firm for years, i am very familiar with double blind tests. i make a living by that gauntlet and also know the foibles of human interaction.

A sophisticated man.Has been there and done everything.I'm impressed.
I'd be even more impressed though if you'd post the results of your DBTs regarding audio cables.Or even better a test under the control of someone else, e.g. Randi since in the end that's what this thread is about.
You know, the old "hic Rhodus, hic salta" thing. Quote:

fwiw, what a strange, chiding and righteous forum and site this seems to be. i am disappointed, but not completely dissuaded as there are reasonable, educated, encouraging and generous members who will hopefully win the day.....

Don't worry, head-fi is the most voodoo happy audio related website I'm aware of and in fact infamous for it.For every sceptic comment you will encounter 20 guys that rave about night and day differences .....

 

[fishski13]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mojo /img/forum/go_quote.gif I trust my eyes. Those two shades of grey were different. It makes no difference that the computer sent the same signal to the monitor for both of them, or that a colourometer says they are the same, or that they are scientifically provable to be the same. I trust my eyes. Your belief in cables is similar to a religion. Both are based on belief rather than proven scientific fact, and as such it's hard to argue with either since believers are so heavily invested in their delusion. Can you answer me one question, please. If you were to do a statistically valid ABX test, and were to fail to distinguish between cables, would you be able to accept you were wrong? That you could not trust your ears? Because if not, it is impossible to reason with you. For my part, if you passed the test, I would be willing to accept that I was wrong.

since i don't listen to music in a statistically valid ABX manner, i don't see the relevance of the results and how it translates to the manner in which i experience music playback in my home. besides, the effects of cables on the sound are more subtle than lets say loudspeakers/HP or amplification. these more subtle differences would be harder to differentiate with statistical ABX testing. from my experience, you need to listen to them in home over an extended period of time before switching to another cable for comparison to appreciate the differences.

sorry if that's too unreasonable.

PACE

 

[badmonkey]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fishski13 /img/forum/go_quote.gif since i don't listen to music in a statistically valid ABX manner, i don't see the relevance of the results and how it translates to the manner in which i experience music playback in my home. besides, the effects of cables on the sound are more subtle than lets say loudspeakers/HP or amplification.

You simply assume that there are in fact differences when it is these differences which you must PROVE to exist if you are to have any credibility in this discussion.

In the absence of any valid proof that there is any discernable difference at all between cables, and the repeated failure of so-called golden ears to differentiate, not to mention this Pear Anjou vs Randi monkey business, a claim that there is a difference is rightly challenged as likely delusional.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fishski13 /img/forum/go_quote.gif these more subtle differences would be harder to differentiate with statistical ABX testing. from my experience, you need to listen to them in home over an extended period of time before switching to another cable for comparison to appreciate the differences.

So, do the ABX over time. That can be part of the protocol of the test which you negotiate. Nobody said you had a time restriction.

In any case I call BS: as Bigshot likes to point out, aural memory is very short term and the best way to differentiate two things is very quick comparisons of short samples. That's the best way to ABX poor quality MP3 against lossless, for instance. Find a representative sample that highlights the difference, loop that, and give yourself a break between rounds. Your long term nonsense is merely about giving yourself enough time to convince yourself...

 

[badmonkey]

Re your discourse with Mojo, if you maintain that failing to tell the difference when you claim that there is a difference is not a relevent result, I suspect that he will now conclude that you are indeed impossible to reason with.

 

[fishski13]

groan...

i think i have rabies.

 

[budburma]

me, too....

 

[Febs]

Quote:

Originally Posted by budburma /img/forum/go_quote.gif i have read and am acutely aware of what this thread is addressing and will happily bow out of its absurdity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fishski13 /img/forum/go_quote.gif groan... i think i have rabies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by budburma /img/forum/go_quote.gif me, too....

If you want to participate in this thread, by all means participate. But if you don't, please stop thread-crapping.

 

[mojo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by earwicker7 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Is this a genuine offer, like the one I made to BigShot, or is this a fictitious internet fart like the Amazing Randi's parlor trick?

Yes, this is genuine.

You may choose any expensive power cord you want, as long as it is just a pure set of wires and doesn't have any electronics. I will supply a kettle lead.

The ABX tests must be conducted fairly, to rigorous scientific standards, and for you to win there must be a statistically valid result showing you could differentiate between cables.

You may use your own HiFi system, with components of your choice (as long as they could in no way affect the power cord, although I can't see how anything would). Setting of your choice, as long as it is possible to conduct the ABX testing there. You may listen to your system with both cables for as long as you like (months, years) if you feel it will help.

ABX tests will use at least one CD of your choice and one CD of my choice (which again you may listen to before hand for as long as you like). There should probably be at least three different samples used in the test.

I wouldn't have to be at the test itself (although I wouldn't mind being there), but obviously it must be fully documented and agreed upon by all parties and at least one independent adjudicator.

Does that seem like a fair and reasonable test likely to produce reliable results to you?

 

[earwicker7]

Quote:

Originally Posted by monolith /img/forum/go_quote.gif Seriously now, this should be free money for these people.

It should be, but Randi backs out of everything that isn't "bag lady" crazy. It's typical magician stuff--"Look, over there! A new challenge! Forget the old one..."

 

[earwicker7]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mojo /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yes, this is genuine. You may choose any expensive power cord you want, as long as it is just a pure set of wires and doesn't have any electronics. I will supply a kettle lead. The ABX tests must be conducted fairly, to rigorous scientific standards, and for you to win there must be a statistically valid result showing you could differentiate between cables. You may use your own HiFi system, with components of your choice (as long as they could in no way affect the power cord, although I can't see how anything would). Setting of your choice, as long as it is possible to conduct the ABX testing there. You may listen to your system with both cables for as long as you like (months, years) if you feel it will help. ABX tests will use at least one CD of your choice and one CD of my choice (which again you may listen to before hand for as long as you like). There should probably be at least three different samples used in the test. I wouldn't have to be at the test itself (although I wouldn't mind being there), but obviously it must be fully documented and agreed upon by all parties and at least one independent adjudicator. Does that seem like a fair and reasonable test likely to produce reliable results to you?

I think you're missing my point. When I asked BigShot to participate in my test, I knew he didn't have an expensive power cord, so I offered to buy him one (not loan one of my own) on the assumption that he'd like it so much that he'd end up paying me back when he kept it.

I'm asking this--are you willing to pay for my plane ticket on the assumption that I will lose and pay you back for the flight? I'm sorry, but this is, as mentioned before, related to burden of proof. You are the creator of the test, therefor it is your burden to make it happen. This is what I did, and I'm asking if you are willing to do the same.

Reason being, I'm not paying to fly to England to meet some internet phantom. Don't take it personally, when someone buys something from me on the net, I don't mail it until I have payment. I'd be an idiot to do otherwise.

 

[monolith]

Quote:

Originally Posted by earwicker7 /img/forum/go_quote.gif It should be, but Randi backs out of everything that isn't "bag lady" crazy. It's typical magician stuff--"Look, over there! A new challenge! Forget the old one..."

Again, he hasn't done this yet, and I doubt he will. This one is a really safe bet on his part. People have copped out, but not Randi.

 

[mojo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by earwicker7 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think you're missing my point. When I asked BigShot to participate in my test, I knew he didn't have an expensive power cord, so I offered to buy him one (not loan one of my own) on the assumption that he'd like it so much that he'd end up paying me back when he kept it. I'm asking this--are you willing to pay for my plane ticket on the assumption that I will lose and pay you back for the flight? I'm sorry, but this is, as mentioned before, related to burden of proof. You are the creator of the test, therefor it is your burden to make it happen. This is what I did, and I'm asking if you are willing to do the same.

I am not willing to pay for that. The reasons are various. I could just about stand to loose £1000, but not a return flight (what, £500 odd?) on top. I am confident I would win, but I am also open minded and not a fool. I would not offer more money than I can afford to loose on any wager, no matter how sure I am of winning.

Please do not take that to mean I am not confident I would win, because I am.

I would also point out that I am simply offering this challenge to anyone who cares to take it. The burden of proof is always with the proponent of the hypothesis, in this case believers in power cords. This is standard scientific method, the burden is always on positive proof - a paper claiming pixies must exist because no-one has been able to disprove their existence would not be taken seriously.

As for buying the power cord, I would prefer to challenge someone who already has a cord they are "familiar" with and which they themselves are confident they can hear a difference in.

I can appreciate that you would not risk flying to the UK to take up this challenge, and do not take it to mean you are backing out.

The challenge is open to anyone. As I said, I would not have to be present if the trail could be properly documented and overseen. It could be conducted in the US, as long as it was rigorous.

 

[earwicker7]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mojo /img/forum/go_quote.gif I am not willing to pay for that. The reasons are various. I could just about stand to loose £1000, but not a return flight (what, £500 odd?) on top. I am confident I would win, but I am also open minded and not a fool. I would not offer more money than I can afford to loose on any wager, no matter how sure I am of winning. Please do not take that to mean I am not confident I would win, because I am. I would also point out that I am simply offering this challenge to anyone who cares to take it. The burden of proof is always with the proponent of the hypothesis, in this case believers in power cords. This is standard scientific method, the burden is always on positive proof - a paper claiming pixies must exist because no-one has been able to disprove their existence would not be taken seriously. As for buying the power cord, I would prefer to challenge someone who already has a cord they are "familiar" with and which they themselves are confident they can hear a difference in. I can appreciate that you would not risk flying to the UK to take up this challenge, and do not take it to mean you are backing out. The challenge is open to anyone. As I said, I would not have to be present if the trail could be properly documented and overseen. It could be conducted in the US, as long as it was rigorous.

I agree with most of what you say. Keep in mind, however, that "Cable companies are actively defrauding people" is an hypothesis. Also, legally speaking, if a prosecutor were to accuse someone of fraud, the burden of proof would be on the prosecutor. The defendant need prove nothing.

As is usual in life, there's a happy medium where both sides admit that rarely in life is anything black or white.

 

[mojo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by earwicker7 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I agree with most of what you say. Keep in mind, however, that "Cable companies are actively defrauding people" is an hypothesis. Also, legally speaking, if a prosecutor were to accuse someone of fraud, the burden of proof would be on the prosecutor. The defendant need prove nothing.

That's true, but I didn't say that.

While I do think many cable companies are frauds, I do not have the resources to prove it and have not been a victim of that fraud myself, so do not bring a case against them. Randi does have the resources, so good luck to him.

Actually, Randi is being quite good about all this. He could just organise trials himself, with an open invitation to so called "golden ears" but otherwise just using ordinary people. With a reasonably large sample size he could get a statistically valid result, and then bring civil suits against cable companies for false advertising when it is proven human beings cannot hear differences between their cable and far cheaper products. That would shift the burden of proof to the cable companies, since Randi would have already proven that human beings cannot hear any difference. Like it or not the law would side with his scientific research rather than vague claims made by the cable companies.

I can understand why he doesn't do that - it wouldn't prove to believers that he is right. They would claim their hearing was better or more trained than ordinary peoples.

So, in that respect, while I do tend to think high end cable companies are fraudsters, I think the people who buy their products are often defrauding themselves just as much.

 

[bigshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fishski13 /img/forum/go_quote.gif bigshot, out of curiosity, could you give details about what electronics/speakers/HP you use.

I don't know what you can tell from a list of stuff. It's how I use the equipment, not the equipment itself.

I have several systems at home for different purposes and my closet full of equipment moves around as needed... My main monitors are custom made 10 inch 3 ways. I also have some nice old JBLs and some Klipsch bookshelves I use as rear channels. My main amp is a honkin big Sony- sorry don't remember the model. Several old amps that don't get a lot of use. Raine pro grade 31 band and cheapie DOD 15 band graphic EQs. Burwen TNE 7000a. Phillips 963sa SACD/DVD/CD player. Six iPods from 3g to Classic. Various preamps, compressers/expanders, noise reduction units. Akai R2R. Three super Beta. Four Super VHS. Laserdisc. Several CD players and DVD players I don't use any more. Dual 1.4 G4 Mac that I use as my audio workstation. Macbook I use as source in my A/V rig. Two Thorens turntables for LPs and a Dual for 78s. I also have a Tiger Oak Victor Victrola VV-X and a RCA/Victor 2-65 suitcase.

In general, my Mac equipment has been replacing my sources. At the office, I have a really nice video digitizing station where I've been doing most of my work lately. I'm in the process of building a digital database of video and media files for a non-profit archive. I generally digitize whatever old formats I play as I play them. For sound I use Peak, Spark XL, Soundtrack Pro and SoundSoap for two channel stuff. Final Cut Pro Studio for video. When I need to do production stuff, I offline in Final Cut and export to ProTools.

The REAL story about my stuff is the music though. I have over 8,000 CDs, 5,000 video tapes, 2,000 laser discs, 1.5 TB of digital files, and well over 15,000 records- Diamond Disks, 78s, LPS. My music collection goes all the way back 100 years to the very earliest disc recordings... jazz, classical, pop, rock n roll, ethnic, country, folk, comedy, spoken word, etc. I share a warehouse with a buddy of mine who is the same about comic books as I am about music.

See ya
Steve

Oh, I fogot. A Wollensak 8 track player!