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New Dragonfly Black and Red Discussion
May 12, 2016 at 6:33 PM Post #271 of 5,077

 


I was having volume problems until I went into the DFR properties and turned up the volume as Steve's post above displays. In UAPP I had to tap the three dots and go to 'Hardware Volume' and raise it up. Hope this helps.
 
May 12, 2016 at 7:03 PM Post #272 of 5,077
squish72 said:
About a week ago I bought a Audioquest dragonfly red now this week I was able to get a LG v10 for a decent price. I saw the v10 has the sabre 9018 and the dragonfly has a 9016 did I just make my dac/amp purchase useless? I only use it on mobile since my pc uses my onkyo to decode.
Click to expand...

 
On paper 9018 should be better, but that doesn't say much. It is all in the implementation, the white papers you see are theoretical values (best possible). Depending on the implementation perhaps you can get pretty close to these values. For a long time I couldn't understand how ODAC with an inferior chip sounded much better to me than many higher priced DACs.
 
I'm a fan of Sabre based DAC's and have heard many different variants - also many bad implementations. To me Dragonfly Red has an excellent implementation of the Sabre DAC 9016 and sounds better than many 9018k2m implementations I've heard. The use of a digital filter (minimum-phase) also levels up the performance. (many implementations use the already built in slow or fast roll off filters - I tend to like custom filter implementations)
 
May 12, 2016 at 8:47 PM Post #274 of 5,077
musicisthekey said:
   
It just shows that we all hear differently. I absolutely love the Red. I'm using Pono MusicWorld player with WASAPI, PC running Win 10. I like DF 1 and absolutely dislike DF 1.2 because it suffers from digititis and sounds artificial. Audioquest fixed that problem with the Red. It's smooth sounding and yet has lots of details. It's never fatiguing. The Red has the biggest soundstage of any portable i had a chance to audition. I've owned ZX2, Cowon P1, HM901 and 802, Calyx M and I prefer the sound of the Red by a big margin. I also like it more than GO V1 and 2 and Herus, I'll go as far as saying that I prefer the Red to Concero HP. I also had a chance to audition Mojo and I was very impressed with it. Unfortunately, Mojo sounds closed in to my ears. If it didn't sound closed in, I would pick it over the Red. I don't remember the last time I was so excited to come home from work and listen to my music library with a new toy.
 
Again, YMMV.
Click to expand...

After spending more time with the Red, I'm afraid that the new toy syndrome has worn off and my opinion has changed. There is something that is bothering me about the way the Red is voiced. Everything sounds smoothed over. It's especially apparent on female vocals. It almost sounds if there is a veil even though it is a bright sounding DAC/Amp. I'm still blown away by the soundstage size though. It's comfortably wide and is not closed in.
 
May 13, 2016 at 12:22 AM Post #276 of 5,077
For the red vs black debate... using black with ie800s. It's a fantastic upgrade to a mobile device. If red has one iota of treble bias over black, I would not choose it over black.

Is this contraption better than dedicated daps? Not to my ears by a long shot. But for the the price It's fantastic for no nonsense on the go great SQ that will leave you consoled if you have to sell the dap for food.
 
May 13, 2016 at 8:45 AM Post #277 of 5,077
Hi Mike - 
 
The reason the Black sounds louder at a particular volume setting, such as when both DAC's are set to -39db, is because the Black's volume control doesn't track in linear (1db) steps. However, the Red does in fact track in 1db linear steps. As you move closer to unity gain there will be less disparity between the two units. Below is Black's volume control step chart. 
 

       
  –100
0.00001
  00100000
–10.9
0.283
00000000
–59.5
0.001
00100001
–10.3
0.305
00000001
–53.5
0.002
00100010
–9.7
0.329
00000010
–50.0
0.003
00100011
–9.0
0.353
00000011
–47.5
0.004
00100100
–8.5
0.379
00000100
–45.5
0.005
00100101
–7.8
0.405
00000101
–43.9
0.007
00100110
–7.2
0.433
00000110
–41.4
0.009
00100111
–6.7
0.462
00000111
–39.5
0.012
00101000
–6.1
0.493
00001000
–36.5
0.015
00101001
–5.6
0.524
00001001
–35.3
0.018
00101010
–5.1
0.557
00001010
–33.3
0.022
00101011
–4.5
0.591
00001011
–31.7
0.026
00101100
–4.1
0.627
00001100
–30.4
0.031
00101101
–3.5
0.664
00001101
–28.6
0.037
00101110
–3.1
0.702
00001110
–27.1
0.043
00101111
–2.6
0.742
00001111
–26.3
0.050
00110000
–2.1
0.783
00010000
–24.7
0.057
00110001
–1.7
0.825
00010001
–23.7
0.065
00110010
–1.2
0.870
00010010
–22.5
0.074
00110011
–0.8
0.915
00010011
–21.7
0.084
00110100
–0.3
0.962
00010100
–20.5
0.093
00110101
0.1
1.010
00010101
–19.6
0.104
00110110
0.5
1.061
00010110
–18.8
0.116
00110111
0.9
1.112
00010111
–17.8
0.129
00111000
1.4
1.165
00011000
–17.0
0.142
00111001
1.7
1.220
00011001
–16.2
0.156
00111010
2.1
1.277
00011010
–15.2
0.172
00111011
2.5
1.335
00011011
–14.5
0.188
00111100
2.9
1.395
00011100
–13.7
0.205
00111101
3.3
1.456
00011101
–13.0
0.223
00111110
3.6
1.520
00011110
–12.3
0.242
00111111
4.0
1.585
00011111
–11.6
    
 
In the end, this has nothing to do with performance. 
 
Regards, 

Steve 

 
May 13, 2016 at 8:50 AM Post #278 of 5,077

Hi Squish - 
 
Implementation of the DAC is still a large factor. Things such as the power supplies, ground schemes, clocking, etc ... are also important. In the end, if the Red doesn't sound better than the V10 on its own you should feel entitled to return the Red. Our hope and assumption is the Red will outperform the stock phone. But you be the judge and please let us know. 
 
Regards, 
 
Steve Silberman
AudioQuest 
 
May 13, 2016 at 8:57 AM Post #279 of 5,077
Hi Steve, I don't quite follow your Black's volume control chart.   1st column is binary counting to around 63...   2nd column is db?  Unsure why this ever goes positive....  3Rd column is ??? Voltage maybe?   Thought the Black was limited to 1.0 volt maximum output?     Understand steps may not be linear in db terms; but some have reported that MAXIMUM volume for the Black is higher than the Red.  This could be an issue with Android not accessing the full volume/voltage capability of the Red ???  But the black getting that access ???  Why might that happen?
 
May 13, 2016 at 9:15 AM Post #280 of 5,077
Hi Steve
 
Thanks for the detailed and concise information. In my case when I run the USB host diagnostics tool on my Samsung Galaxy S6 (stock Android 6.0.1) it advises me that I am fully supported. However if I use any application other than UAPP the the fly does not change color when different quality material is played, plus the volume is low. This suggests to me that unless I use UAPP the inbuilt USB host driver is a) not sending bit perfect digital output to the DAC and b) it's not accessing the DAC's volume control. I completely appreciate the complexity of these issues and understand that it is difficult to provide fully compatible devices in this day and age. But - I do think perhaps you guys need to make this a bit clearer for potential Android customers. Quotes taken from your website "one that could be reliably used with Apple and Android smartphones and tablets" "Whether you’re listening to Spotify, YouTube, Tidal, ripped CDs, or state-of-the-art high-resolution files, DragonFly will deliver a more emotionally compelling and enjoyable experience" - this has not been my experience... I see that in your FAQ you advise greater detail about the Android compatibility, but I only got as far as running the host check, which turned out to not paint the complete picture for my particular device. As you indicate the only solution to this would be a reliable USB host driver. I hope this is something that you and your team look to work on..... As it's very usual to be supplied with working drivers for a hardware device when one purchases technology these days. 
 
As a side note... The DF Red sounds fantastic with UAPP and every pair of phones I have paired it with so far! I also really love the portability giving the ability to plug in at work and any Windows or MAC device reliably. Hope the Android issue gets resolved as I for one do feel that being restricted to just one app, is a bit of a shame.
 
May 13, 2016 at 10:21 AM Post #281 of 5,077
officerdibble said:
  Hi Steve
 
As a side note... The DF Red sounds fantastic with UAPP and every pair of phones I have paired it with so far!
Click to expand...

 
Well Steve, seems that the new Dragonflies are optimized to Apple products and smartphones in general. Using the Red with my Personal Computer (former target group of AQ) I find it a step back sonically compared to the Dragonfly 1.2. Everything seems to be a bit "too much", too much pressure, sound seems too fat, there no longer exists the transparency and separation of the 1.2. On PC it is too loud (as it is optimised for smartphones). Volume slider of JRiver is 10% as it was 40% with 1.2  
 
Any comments to this as I read in other forums that pc users made the same experience?
triportsad.gif

 
 Regards, Reinhard  
 
May 13, 2016 at 10:58 AM Post #282 of 5,077
Why do a lot of you seemed obsessed with volume levels out of these DragonFly? With an average headphone you can't turn it up very loud to begin with, so what's the fascination?  I think my Sennheiser HD650 are the hardest thing I'd realistically want to drive with the DragonFly and it gets plenty loud.  
 
May 13, 2016 at 11:52 AM Post #283 of 5,077
jmsaxon69 said:
  Why do a lot of you seemed obsessed with volume levels out of these DragonFly? With an average headphone you can't turn it up very loud to begin with, so what's the fascination?  I think my Sennheiser HD650 are the hardest thing I'd realistically want to drive with the DragonFly and it gets plenty loud.  
Click to expand...

The problem is volume levels through Android using apps like Google Play Music, Spotify, YouTube, etc. do not get loud enough, even when set to full. For a lot of people, USB Audio Player Pro is the only app that gives adequate volume levels, which is fine if you have most of your music downloaded to your device, but for people who primarily stream it's an issue. I mostly use UAPP with downloaded music so the DF is fine, but through my Galaxy S6 Active YouTube, Play Music and MX Player require 14/15-15/15 volume to be loud enough with my IEMs. My larger headphones at 15/15 will be driven to "listenable in a quiet environment" loud.
 
With UAPP I can go deaf before reaching 70% volume.
 
May 13, 2016 at 1:11 PM Post #285 of 5,077
One quick observation for users experiencing issues with Android devices:  Try another OTG cable.
 
I was experiencing good Android connectivity on one device but problems on two others, all using a no-brand OTG cable that works fine for transferring content off a USB stick.
When I swapped this for another OTG cable (a Sony branded one FWIW) I found that all three devices could connect to the Dragonfly without any issues.
 
Clearly not all OTG cables are created equal and even if they work for file transfer, they may not be up to USB audio.
 
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