Life after Yggdrasil?
Jul 9, 2016 at 6:12 AM Post #346 of 1,366
When I heard the Vega (in an Auric stack) I was struck by its 'hi-tech' sound but it didn't budge the E-motive-meter, at all.
It reminded me of the sound of SS gear that has been pushed to emphasize its utter surgical precision, but is stripped of the emotional contents.
 
And having owned Mac gear in the past and then reading a few reviews it became apparent that it retained the Mac signature of 'Do No Wrong' which usually results in do very little right as well.
 
As for the Chord stuff none of it creates much interest for me, mostly I suspect due to the high prices, considering the bits and pieces and designed capability.
 
So thus far I have near perfect congruency with your observations.
 
And soon we'll be into the good stuff… 
atsmile.gif

 
JJ
 
Jul 9, 2016 at 1:10 PM Post #349 of 1,366
  Didnt realize all of this took place today. 
 
After I purchased the stockholm my journey was pretty short. I really liked the Stockholm v.2 but it broke. So I bought the Metrum Musette, liked it but it had a bit of lower midrange warmth that was a little too natural and it was a little slow. Then I just jumped and went for the PAVANE. 
This thing is huge. 
My experience with the YGGY is short. I just recall it being not as musical as I was expecting. I was expecting a fuller sound I guess but that is probably just do to the short time with it. 
 
PAVANE here now with no real good reference and also I do not have the supporting components around it upgraded yet. I am just running USB for now and only for a short season. Also as soon as it got here I let go of my HD800S which really made me unable to hear differences. With my TH2, an HD650 loaner,  and Pavane I hear just about the most organic and correct sound I have ever heard through any gear, meet (only have been to a couple) or home. Through the times @Greed has offered good advice. He didn't declare a definitive winner between the Pavane and YGGY.
 
 
He put it like this...dont think he would mind...if so please forgive me... soooo sorry
redface.gif
:
"Soundstage and imaging I would definitely give the nod to the Pavane. "
"the Yggy hits harder. It has a more prominent and punchier sound than the Pavane."
 
"The Yggy is precise, neutral, highly dynamic type sound. Not much warmth invovled, although a bit in the bass."
"The Pavane on the other hand seems to be faster, edgier, slightly more upfront type sound."
 
Those could have been preliminary impressions or something but I think it would be good for my man greed to chime in if he can. 
 
Also @Torq Hopefully you will be there on the 30th since you live in Seattle at the meet. Two Pavanes will be there then. 
 
i should have really asked him before posting this. I feel bad.

 
I posted a fair bit yesterday, but all the impressions/comments are based on auditions I've being doing over the course of several weeks.  I was originally going to wait until I had all the data in and had made a final choice to post all of that, but I decided not to wait on all of it.  So I'll be adding to the thread with the notes I already have as I have the time and opportunity to do so.  Anything in the first page, listed in blue, has already been auditioned.
 
I'll save my Metrum Pavane comments until I write them up coherently.
 
Unless something dramatic happens, I won't make the meet on the 30th unfortunately as I'll be traveling.
 
Jul 9, 2016 at 2:01 PM Post #350 of 1,366
Jul 9, 2016 at 2:09 PM Post #351 of 1,366
 
  METRUM PAVANE VS YGGDRASIL 
post #214

 
The person probably had a bad synergy with Yggy IMO. I do not think the Yggy has those "tonally bleached" sound traits.

I have heard someone call the yggy lush... Not really agreeing with that either. It didn't sound as organic tonally as I was expecting. The owner expressed to me that tonally the yggy was a bit of a let down in in that it had a lean (what most audiophiles call neutral for God knows why) and slightly cold sound to it. It definitely wasn't their favorite DAC. He was using it with more warm sounding gear though. 
 
Perhaps the yggy has such detailed, clear, dense, and punchy tones that its leanness beyond the bass is overlooked by a lot of people? Not really sure but I don't think it was a synergy issue because I have heard it before, yet put differently, however not often.
 
This could be the minority impression of the yggy. 
 
Some say lean. This is not to be exaggerated or taken as it is as deeply expressed by others as post #214. Some may find it the opposite. I will post examples below: 
  1. post #538 (probably referring to the bass, open to interpretation)
  2. #2687 Stock power cord
  3. https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2016/01/30/review-aune-s16-dac/"The Schiit Yggrdasil, a reasonable value for money, but with a slight harshness in the upper mids and an overall grain in the sound. The Aune appears more forgiving on certain recordings, despite the Schiit being a ladder-DAC and the Aune a ΔΣ design. The “Yggy” as many call it is well built, costs and weights three times more but did not manage to confirm the rather high expectations created by the community and certain forums."
  4.  I used my new LCD-X headphones, which many hold as the most neutral of the Audeze lineup. I won't argue against that. The HP amp I recently bought is a mosfet and tube hybrid called the Pathos Aurium, which pairs very well with the easy to drive LCD-X. The Pathos doesn't seem to add anything in the sense of altering the sound it's amplifying beyond a hint of some liquidity, which nicely tames higher treble a bit, while still being incredibly detailed when paired with the X. I liked this combination when I heard it with the Rega DAC when I first heard the Audeze full lineup and other reviewers have commented on the pairing of the Pathos and LCD-X as well. See links here http://www.head-fi.org/products/pathos-aurium and herehttp://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/audeze-lcd-x-headphones/
    So what do you get when you pair a neutral (no color adding) DAC like the Yggy, with a neutral amp like the Pathos with the most neutral of the Audeze line? In a word, boring. I'm sorry to say it, but the sound is just flat (think 2-d) and it doesn't engage the senses at all. I think this is just a synergy nightmare with these products which are otherwise excellent, so I don't want to say more about it and give anyone the impression I'm insulting the Yggy. I love my Yggy now and she has feelings after all. I might have to buy her roses to make up for my harsh words here. 
    biggrin.gif
     Ha! Jesting aside, I think synergy is just off with the combination of gear. Each piece with other gear sounds wonderful. So lesson learned here. There is such a thing as too much neutrality in a system, or so I know believe. I had heard people say this before when I read posts, but now I've heard it myself. If I had only heard the Yggy with my headphone gear I might have concluded it was just an over-hyped unit. Perspective is important though and this isn't in the least bit true. Fortunately it hit the ball out of the park with my speaker setup.
    - this is a note on synergy. but again the yggy may be( not saying for sure just kinda sharing impressions to back the previous post up) of the stereophile perspective of  neutral which is purposefully slightly cold to allow details to be heard easier. I am not saying the YGGY is cold for sure because, though I heard it at a meet, its not fair for me to call it cold based off of that. 
  5. post #1879 this is what I thought I heard at the meet.
  6. http://www.audioaficionado.org/738621-post2.html
  7. http://www.audioaficionado.org/738990-post4.html
  8. http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/schiit-yggdrasil-best-digital-analogue-converter-available-24351/index55.html#post533862
  9. https://theclosetaudiophile.wordpress.com/2016/03/04/head-fi-meet-impressions/
 
there is more...but whatever. I personally would buy the heck out of the yggdrasil I would just try to match it with the right gear. 
 
Jul 9, 2016 at 2:22 PM Post #352 of 1,366

Dear Audiophiles: 
normal_smile .gif

 
First of all, I would like to tell you how important it is to have such informative conversations to us poor souls living in the sticks with very limited opportunities for auditions! More often than not, we have to base our purchasing decisions on the information provided during such discussions. Thank you ALL very kindly for your input, regardless if it is small or significant! 
normal_smile .gif

 
In case @Torq will be kind enough to publish his findings (very much looking forward to this!), I will try to extrapolate the results into my price range, avoiding potentially costly mistakes. 
smile.gif


 
Jul 9, 2016 at 2:41 PM Post #353 of 1,366
 
Dear Audiophiles: 
normal_smile .gif

 
First of all, I would like to tell you how important it is to have such informative conversations to us poor souls living in the sticks with very limited opportunities for auditions! More often than not, we have to base our purchasing decisions on the information provided during such discussions. Thank you ALL very kindly for your input, regardless if it is small or significant! 
normal_smile .gif

 
In case @Torq will be kind enough to publish his findings (very much looking forward to this!), I will try to extrapolate the results into my price range, avoiding potentially costly mistakes. 
smile.gif


I am posting my findings ... just started doing so this week ... you can find links in the first post in the thread (or just scroll back through until you find them, but it's probably easier to just follow the links).
 
Will be posting one or two more, maybe three or four more, today, depending on how my day pans out.
 
Jul 9, 2016 at 3:08 PM Post #354 of 1,366
  I have heard someone call the yggy lush... Not really agreeing with that either. It didn't sound as organic tonally as I was expecting. The owner expressed to me that tonally the yggy was a bit of a let down in in that it had a lean (what most audiophiles call neutral for God knows why) and slightly cold sound to it. It definitely wasn't their favorite DAC. He was using it with more warm sounding gear though. 
 
Perhaps the yggy has such detailed, clear, dense, and punchy tones that its leanness beyond the bass is overlooked by a lot of people? Not really sure but I don't think it was a synergy issue because I have heard it before, yet put differently, however not often.
 
This could be the minority impression of the yggy. 
 
Some say lean. This is not to be exaggerated or taken as it is as deeply expressed by others as post #214. Some may find it the opposite. I will post examples below: 
  1. post #538 (probably referring to the bass, open to interpretation)
  2. #2687 Stock power cord
  3. https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2016/01/30/review-aune-s16-dac/"The Schiit Yggrdasil, a reasonable value for money, but with a slight harshness in the upper mids and an overall grain in the sound. The Aune appears more forgiving on certain recordings, despite the Schiit being a ladder-DAC and the Aune a ΔΣ design. The “Yggy” as many call it is well built, costs and weights three times more but did not manage to confirm the rather high expectations created by the community and certain forums."
  4.  I used my new LCD-X headphones, which many hold as the most neutral of the Audeze lineup. I won't argue against that. The HP amp I recently bought is a mosfet and tube hybrid called the Pathos Aurium, which pairs very well with the easy to drive LCD-X. The Pathos doesn't seem to add anything in the sense of altering the sound it's amplifying beyond a hint of some liquidity, which nicely tames higher treble a bit, while still being incredibly detailed when paired with the X. I liked this combination when I heard it with the Rega DAC when I first heard the Audeze full lineup and other reviewers have commented on the pairing of the Pathos and LCD-X as well. See links here http://www.head-fi.org/products/pathos-aurium and herehttp://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/audeze-lcd-x-headphones/
    So what do you get when you pair a neutral (no color adding) DAC like the Yggy, with a neutral amp like the Pathos with the most neutral of the Audeze line? In a word, boring. I'm sorry to say it, but the sound is just flat (think 2-d) and it doesn't engage the senses at all. I think this is just a synergy nightmare with these products which are otherwise excellent, so I don't want to say more about it and give anyone the impression I'm insulting the Yggy. I love my Yggy now and she has feelings after all. I might have to buy her roses to make up for my harsh words here. 
    biggrin.gif
     Ha! Jesting aside, I think synergy is just off with the combination of gear. Each piece with other gear sounds wonderful. So lesson learned here. There is such a thing as too much neutrality in a system, or so I know believe. I had heard people say this before when I read posts, but now I've heard it myself. If I had only heard the Yggy with my headphone gear I might have concluded it was just an over-hyped unit. Perspective is important though and this isn't in the least bit true. Fortunately it hit the ball out of the park with my speaker setup.
    - this is a note on synergy. but again the yggy may be( not saying for sure just kinda sharing impressions to back the previous post up) of the stereophile perspective of  neutral which is purposefully slightly cold to allow details to be heard easier. I am not saying the YGGY is cold for sure because, though I heard it at a meet, its not fair for me to call it cold based off of that. 
  5. post #1879 this is what I thought I heard at the meet.
  6. http://www.audioaficionado.org/738621-post2.html
  7. http://www.audioaficionado.org/738990-post4.html
  8. http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/schiit-yggdrasil-best-digital-analogue-converter-available-24351/index55.html#post533862
  9. https://theclosetaudiophile.wordpress.com/2016/03/04/head-fi-meet-impressions/
 
there is more...but whatever. I personally would buy the heck out of the yggdrasil I would just try to match it with the right gear. 

 
The glitch issue on computer audiophile got my attention. Could this be a quality issue on Schiit that some Yggy batches sounds like what others described as analytical, bleached, lean, harsh, etc. while the general consensus is that Yggy sounds like analog, but with spot-on imaging, resolution, tonality, PRAT and soundstage.
 
Jul 9, 2016 at 3:13 PM Post #355 of 1,366
  The glitch issue on computer audiophile got my attention. Could this be a quality issue on Schiit that some Yggy batches sounds like what others described as analytical, bleached, lean, harsh, etc. while the general consensus is that Yggy sounds like analog, but with spot-on imaging, resolution, tonality, PRAT and soundstage.

I am not sure...could be. Product variance hasn't been really mentioned. I would just attribute the differences to general variety of opinions and perspectives. My neutral is different from the next mans. What I heard of the yggy maybe because I was listening for different things. Same as how I find the Microzotl 2 to not sound like a tube amp and lacks emotion for me, most rave about it. 
 
I have a possible analogy... The HE6 is rarely called sterile but it can be and has been. It has a very hefty sound to it but the midrange is flat, the treble is bright, but the tones are pure and full bodied. However, even though tonally I find it a bit cold in the midrange it has some of the best mids I have heard. Some may call it organic, some may call it sterile, some may call it sterile. I can agree with both. 
 
Jul 9, 2016 at 4:03 PM Post #357 of 1,366
   
The glitch issue on computer audiophile got my attention. Could this be a quality issue on Schiit that some Yggy batches sounds like what others described as analytical, bleached, lean, harsh, etc. while the general consensus is that Yggy sounds like analog, but with spot-on imaging, resolution, tonality, PRAT and soundstage.

 
The ROW (rest of the world) DACs mask ultra low level glitches in dither, which is noise.  I have never heard anyone complain that the addition of dither some 90-100 db down is noisy.  Since dither is inaudible, so is the glitch.  Your choices are inaudible glitch (Yggy, Gumby, or Bimby) or inaudible noise (ROW).  Please understand, the Yggy is not a ROW DAC.  I am not convinced that dither is a better solution than the non-linearities it masks; should I ever be wrong, it is trivial to add noise (dither) to the Yggy, Gumby, or Bimby.  To quote Henry Kloss: "Everything that matters can be measured, but not everything that can be measured matters." (Thanks, @Ableza) 
 
Schiit Audio Stay updated on Schiit Audio at their sponsor profile on Head-Fi.
 
https://www.facebook.com/Schiit/ http://www.schiit.com/
Jul 9, 2016 at 6:17 PM Post #358 of 1,366

Ayre Acoustics

Codex (-)

This is quite a dull looking thing.  Plain, simple and elegantly functional … but still dull.  And it has a less-than-convenient configuration for connecting balanced headphones.  Though happily it’s other balanced-outputs are quite conventional XLR sockets, which makes them easy to use.
 
And you’ll want to use it in balanced mode as it performs significantly better that way than it does in single-ended configuration.  I call that out because the difference between balanced and single-ended with most components isn’t that big, but it’s quite noticeable with the Codex.
 
Detail levels are similar to Auralic’s Vega, without the apparent hyper-detail effect I found there, but don’t quite approach what I get out of Yggdrasil.  The general presentation is quite neutral, maybe a shade over enthusiastic up top, but not to the point I’d describe it as bright, and maybe a little dry at a times.  It certainly doesn’t do much for poor recordings and didn’t make mellow of anything harsh or strident, but then it didn't add harshness or stridency that wasn't already there.
 
The Codex does give a quite musical rendering though it somehow manages to lack a little in stirring emotion – and that with pieces that usually have a quite profound effect on me.  I did make it all the way through my favorite version of “Carmen” here, unlike with the Vega, and Jessye’s voice projected well and with good tone and life.
 
Schiit’s DAC was more believable with instrumental timbre, delivered a more expansive and solid soundstage, has better neutrality, exhibits more presence and remains entirely musical and engrossing.  Lower registers are plumbed more thoroughly while maintaining a treble that’s capable of air and space and sweetness, without ever seeming artificial.
 
So, while this is not really for me, and I don’t think this competes that closely with Yggdrasil, particularly with price taken into consideration (even allowing for the built-in headphone amplifier), it’s a rather nice listen.
 
Another convincing win for Yggdrasil, as far as I’m concerned.
 
QB-9 DSD (-)
 
This was auditioned via a USB connection, on account of that being the only input it has.
 
I played around with it in single-ended and balanced mode, but it was rapidly apparent, much like the Codex, that you want to use this in a balanced configuration if you can.  The difference is larger than with most components I’ve tried.
 
This did a really nice job with female vocals, be they deep and mellow or bright and more soaring.  The sense of energy and life in those portrayals was really rather delightful.
 
Detail is good without seeming exaggerated or artificial, with a smooth and balanced presentation that, while not particularly exciting, is musical and even-handed.  I liked it more with acoustic pieces, small chamber ensembles and bigger classical productions, where it had very good layering, than I did with more driving and complex contemporary music.
 
When doing harder evaluations (when things aren’t immediately clear) I use an approach called “Tune Dem” to help sort things out.  Here the Yggdrasil was definitely ahead, with it being much easier to follow the music overall and to hear individual elements within it, which is sometimes described as “instrumental separation”.
 
I think Yggdrasil is still extracting a little more detail than the Ayre, and it’s rendering it in a more lifelike manner, something that I found more evident with lightly plucked strings, brushes on cymbals and pianissimo passages/notes on a real piano.  With Yggdrasil you can, if the recording has it, hear individual wires on a brush dragging after the main bundle, whereas I was not able to discern that as frequently on the QB-9 DSD.
 
Soundstage easily goes to the Yggdrasil.  It was bigger, three dimensional and very solidly projected, whereas with the Ayre it was shallower and shorter, and somehow left feeling wider than it should be.
 
The Ayre didn’t engross me and leave me wanting to play “just one more song” the way Yggdrasil, and some other DACs, managed, but it was still entirely enjoyable.
 
I think the QB-9 DSD is very good, excellent even - if you ignore the price.  I’d take it over the Auralic Vega without any hesitation. If I only had the ability to use USB DACs then it’d float up near the top of what I’ve heard over USB without the need for expensive fixes in the chain …
 
But … when put next to Yggdrasil, the QB-D DSD is too expensive for what it does without actually reaching quite the same level that the Schiit product achieves.
 
--
 
Since I was using a USB connection anyway, I did run some DSD files through the Ayre.  This did nothing to convince me that DSD is worth bothering with and, when I could tell the difference between DSD and PCM I almost invariably chose the PCM playback.
 
Jul 10, 2016 at 2:26 AM Post #359 of 1,366
  And you’ll want to use it in balanced mode as it performs significantly better that way than it does in single-ended configuration.  I call that out because the difference between balanced and single-ended with most components isn’t that big, but it’s quite noticeable with the Codex.


This reminds me of the controversy over Schiit's Gungnir and Yggdrasil SE vs balanced outs. Your comments above would suggest that for Yggdrasil there isn't much of a drop in performance when going SE...
 
One minor request, if you would consider: Many of the components you evaluate are available from dealers with no price tag readily advertised on their website. It would be nice if you could mention the dealer's asking price for the components you review. This way readers can more easily judge on the value merits of the product in question compared to the Yggdrasil...
 
Jul 10, 2016 at 2:35 AM Post #360 of 1,366
 
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This reminds me of the controversy over Schiit's Gungnir and Yggdrasil SE vs balanced outs. Your comments above would suggest that for Yggdrasil there isn't much of a drop in performance when going SE...
 
One minor request, if you would consider: Many of the components you evaluate are available from dealers with no price tag readily advertised on their website. It would be nice if you could mention the dealer's asking price for the components you review. This way readers can more easily judge on the value merits of the product in question compared to the Yggdrasil...


Intelligent suggestion.
 

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