Life after Yggdrasil?
Jul 8, 2016 at 3:34 AM Post #333 of 1,366
Thanks for posting the interview.  The clock discussion isn't until the last couple of minutes.
 
Funny to learn that FemtoClock is a trademark of IDT, an IC chip manufacturer.  From the IDT website:
 
This family of devices is often used to replace third overtone and high frequency fundamental (HFF, inverted mesa) crystal oscillators or expensive surface acoustic wave (SAW) oscillators. They are more reliable, cost less, and are more readily available with shorter lead times.

 
How much did LH charge for the Femto clock upgrades during their various KS/Indiegogo campaigns?
 
Jul 8, 2016 at 4:10 AM Post #334 of 1,366
 
That's a really interesting approach ... all passive discrete R2R ladder, NOS, filterless and no re-clocking ... in fact, that's beyond interesting, it's pretty radical!
 
Among others, I have an MHDT Stockholm 2 which is also NOS/R2R and filterless and that is extremely musical, nicely detailed and has a very good soundstage, which bodes well for the Mosaic.  It'll be interesting trying to get an audition of one - since I'm in the US their home-demo program sounds like it may not be available - it's intriguing enough that I'd likely be willing to give one a try if the return policy would accommodate it.  Time to do some checking ...
 
Thanks!

 
Hey Torq,
 
I'm wondering what you're looking from this next DAC that the Stockholm 2 doesn't provide, and if you have heard (or considered) MHDT's top DAC, the Pagoda with the PCM1704 chips?
 
After a couple of weeks with both the Pagoda and Stockholm 2 (thanks soundsgoodtome) it was clear to me I was spending the extra $ to get the Pagoda.  So on one hand it might be worth considering the Pagoda.  On the other, there is a definite house sound to all the MHDT docs, so if something about the Stockholm 2 disappoints the same may be true for the Pagoda.
 
Thoughts?
 
Jul 8, 2016 at 4:55 AM Post #335 of 1,366
   
Hey Torq,
 
I'm wondering what you're looking from this next DAC that the Stockholm 2 doesn't provide, and if you have heard (or considered) MHDT's top DAC, the Pagoda with the PCM1704 chips?
 
After a couple of weeks with both the Pagoda and Stockholm 2 (thanks soundsgoodtome) it was clear to me I was spending the extra $ to get the Pagoda.  So on one hand it might be worth considering the Pagoda.  On the other, there is a definite house sound to all the MHDT docs, so if something about the Stockholm 2 disappoints the same may be true for the Pagoda.
 
Thoughts?


I'm looking for a DAC that beats Yggdrasil across the board and Stockholm V2 doesn't do that.  In fact I'd say that Yggdrasil bests the Stockholm in every interesting measure, including outright musicality and involvement.  What the Stockholm has is a juicy, if very slightly recessed mid-range that, while seemingly artificially sweet or lush is very cozy ... which is wonderful when that's what I am in the mood for.  It is also highly tweakable, which is its own source of fun.
 
Yggdrasil wins on detail/resolution, instrumental separation, tone, balance, dynamics, cohesion, neutrality, musicality, transients, sound stage, involvement and transparency.  It's a very tough act to follow.
 
Besides, I have a Stockholm V2 already and its very happy in my little bed-side rig feeding a Woo WA6!  It's not a DAC I'm disappointed with at all, I enjoy it very much, I just enjoy Yggdrasil even more.  I'm not disappointed in my Yggdrasil either, but before I went ahead and bought a 2nd one for another high-end rig (multiple homes) I figured I'd see if there was anything else out there that could beat it convincingly.
 
I have heard the Pagoda - still opted for the Stockholm; this I attribute to its use of the PCM1704 DAC chip which is, along with a couple of others (including CS4398, TDA1543, various ESS Sabres, though by no means all,  among others) a chip I just don't tend to get on with*.  Lots of people love the PCM1704, I'm just not one of them - quite like the 1702 though, seems a bit more coherent and taught in the bottom end.
 
*It may not even be down to the DAC chip itself ... just the way it tends to get implemented that makes me shy away from it, but I'd have to be able to control more variables than I care to try to address to make that determination.  
 
Anyway, short version - I think Yggdrasil operates in a overall higher tier  than the MHDT units and it's Yggdrasil that I'm trying to beat.
 
Jul 8, 2016 at 8:18 AM Post #336 of 1,366
Metruem Pavane might match or even beat yggy in some areas and vice versa. You really have to spend 3-5x Of yggy' at least to beat it.
 
Jul 8, 2016 at 9:09 AM Post #337 of 1,366

May I humbly recommend considering the Excelsio and Supremo DACs by North Star Design? I know, they are based on ES9018 Sabre DAC chip the OP is not particularly fond of, but it is all in the implementation… 
wink_face.gif


 
Jul 8, 2016 at 1:52 PM Post #338 of 1,366
 
May I humbly recommend considering the Excelsio and Supremo DACs by North Star Design? I know, they are based on ES9018 Sabre DAC chip the OP is not particularly fond of, but it is all in the implementation… 
wink_face.gif

 
First, thanks for the recommendation.
 
Yes, implementation around any DAC chip is certainly the major factor in the overall performance of the product.  Unfortunately, in my experience, all too often such products wind up over-doing the clock/re-clock designs or charge exorbitant sums for power-supply designs that can be beaten with a $50 wall-wart, so I tend to be more skeptical of CoTS DAC chip implementations going into things.
 
An as engineer I appreciate innovative engineering and excellent measurements; as a customer I appreciate pragmatic design and rational engineering choices (not just "do it because we can").
 
I can't find a US dealer or distributor for the North Star Design DACs, and my experience so far has shown that this makes getting auditions extremely involved and very slow.  And, since there's nothing I can find on their site that makes their product standout (it looks like it's using a lot of the on-chip functionality from the ES9018, which is very good to be sure ... but doesn't really justify the price), it's one I'm going to take a pass on.
 
Jul 8, 2016 at 1:53 PM Post #339 of 1,366
Metruem Pavane might match or even beat yggy in some areas and vice versa. You really have to spend 3-5x Of yggy' at least to beat it.

 
I'll post my thoughts on the Metrum Pavane sometime in the next day or so; since I've already gotten to listen to it.  I have a good idea of where it stands in the grand scheme of things.
 
Jul 8, 2016 at 2:40 PM Post #340 of 1,366
   
I'll post my thoughts on the Metrum Pavane sometime in the next day or so; since I've already gotten to listen to it.  I have a good idea of where it stands in the grand scheme of things.

Very interested in this. 
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Jul 8, 2016 at 4:01 PM Post #341 of 1,366

Auralic

[size=17.03px]Vega [/size][size=17.03px](-)[/size]
 
I’ve auditioned the Auralic Vega in the past, prior to buying my current Yggdrasil in fact, and while it was a nice sounding product, it wasn’t persuasive enough at the time to warrant pursuing.  Re-auditioning it, this time directly against my Yggdrasil in my current system, it still fails to rise above what Schiit’s product can do, and does routinely, at least for me.
 
The first impression I get with the Vega is one of hyper-detail.  This gives way to simply being a brighter, perhaps somewhat grainier, rendering than I get with Yggdrasil – rather than being any actual increase in realized detail or resolution.  In fact, in general, I find Yggdrasil to be more transparent and resolving, without winding up sounding analytical (which would also be a slightly over the top characterization of the Vega's presentation).
 
While I wouldn’t actually call the Vega bright, it did get fatiguing after a few hours, which is something I’ve not experienced with Yggdrasil ever, no matter how long I listen for.  As a specific example, I am pressed to think of a time where, outside interruptions notwithstanding, I’ve ever started listening to the “Jessye Norman” version of Bizet’s “Carmen” and not finished it.  It’s usually a “settle in for the evening and forget the world exists” kind of an affair.
 
On the Vega I turned it off before the mid-point of the second act.  It just wasn’t stirring in me, emotionally, what that piece usually does and I kept wanting to lower the volume from half an hour in.
 
Using different filters did not make any useful difference here – audible yes, but not to the point where it made me want to spend more time listening to it.
 
Tonally I find I prefer Yggdrasil, particularly with piano and woodwind instruments and, even more so, I find the Schiit unit to treat female vocals in a manner that, even when they’re getting up into the upper octaves avoid any semblance of sibilance or harshness.  It also projects a much more convincing soundstage than Vega, and yields better layering and spatiality.
 
For me, Schiit's offering bests the Vega across the board, and at about 2/3rds the price.
 
I can’t think of anything the Vega does better than Yggdrasil except, of course, for being able to play DSD – which isn’t useful to me now that I’ve decided to pass on DSD completely.  In terms of enjoyment and musicality the Schiit DAC draws me in, bathes me in music, and holds my attention and stirs my emotions.  The Auralic unit never quite managed that – or only did so fleetingly.  This excepted, the actual low-level, individual, technical assessments, while all still favoring Yggdrasil for me, are not miles apart - but taken all together it makes for an easy choice.
 
Yggdrasil wins, consistently and comfortably, for me.
 
Jul 8, 2016 at 4:27 PM Post #342 of 1,366

McIntosh

 
[size=17.03px]MHA100 [/size][size=17.03px](-)[/size][size=17.03px](!)[/size]
 
Oh dear …
 
It’s hard to know where to start here.  Perhaps I should begin by saying that the McIntosh MHA100 is a bit out of place in this evaluation.  It’s not just a DAC, but is instead an integrated DAC, pre-amp, speaker amplifier and quite fancy headphone amplifier.
 
You wouldn’t buy this as just a DAC unless you were insane.
 
Bifrost and Mojo, never mind Yggdrasil, both completely obliterate the performance of the built-in DAC, as tested by running both of them into the MHA100 via its analog inputs and totally bypassing the internal DAC.
 
It’s certainly very stylish … in an “If you like that sort of thing, it’s the sort of thing you like” kind of way.  I’m sure it appeals to the dedicated McIntosh crowd.  I’d need to be on the happy side of several large Scotches to comment positively on the aesthetics.
 
As a headphone amplifier, with or without using the internal DAC, I found it lackluster.  Presentation was very laid back and smooth, and quite pleasant in an “easy listening” kind of way, but was completely un-engaging, lacking in dynamics, and never really seemed to exert the authority I’m used to over the headphones I was testing with.  I think the best thing I could say about it is that it was sonically inoffensive.  It doesn’t do a lot obviously wrong.  It’s just that it doesn’t do anything that’s notably “right”, beyond its overall tonal balance.
 
I played with the various output tap options and had bass emphasis and HDX on and off and while they certainly affected the way it sounds didn’t do anything to elevate it.
 
Perhaps it’s really good with speakers … didn’t try it that way.
 
As it stands, while I never really looked at this as a serious contender as an Yggdrasil alternative, I was very surprised at just how average it was, especially given the lofty price.  So … quite comically poor value as it stands given the competition.  I would MUCH rather have an Yggdrasil/Ragnarok stack than the MHA100.  A “lowly” Lyr/Bifrost setup is a much more enjoyable and, for me, capable, listen – that doesn’t feel like it’s “not all there” with harder loads.
 
Hell, even a Mojo, all on it’s own, is preferable to me than the McIntosh unit.
 
Jul 9, 2016 at 1:46 AM Post #343 of 1,366
I'm looking for a DAC that beats Yggdrasil across the board and Stockholm V2 doesn't do that.  In fact I'd say that Yggdrasil bests the Stockholm in every interesting measure, including outright musicality and involvement.  What the Stockholm has is a juicy, if very slightly recessed mid-range that, while seemingly artificially sweet or lush is very cozy ... which is wonderful when that's what I am in the mood for.  It is also highly tweakable, which is its own source of fun.

Yggdrasil wins on detail/resolution, instrumental separation, tone, balance, dynamics, cohesion, neutrality, musicality, transients, sound stage, involvement and transparency.  It's a very tough act to follow.

Besides, I have a Stockholm V2 already and its very happy in my little bed-side rig feeding a Woo WA6!  It's not a DAC I'm disappointed with at all, I enjoy it very much, I just enjoy Yggdrasil even more.  I'm not disappointed in my Yggdrasil either, but before I went ahead and bought a 2nd one for another high-end rig (multiple homes) I figured I'd see if there was anything else out there that could beat it convincingly.

I have heard the Pagoda - still opted for the Stockholm; this I attribute to its use of the PCM1704 DAC chip which is, along with a couple of others (including CS4398, TDA1543, various ESS Sabres, though by no means all,  among others) a chip I just don't tend to get on with*.  Lots of people love the PCM1704, I'm just not one of them - quite like the 1702 though, seems a bit more coherent and taught in the bottom end.

*It may not even be down to the DAC chip itself ... just the way it tends to get implemented that makes me shy away from it, but I'd have to be able to control more variables than I care to try to address to make that determination.  

Anyway, short version - I think Yggdrasil operates in a overall higher tier  than the MHDT units and it's Yggdrasil that I'm trying to beat.


Ah OK, trying to best the Yggdrasil (some how I missed that). It's a valiant cause that I'll be watching closely!

BTW, thanks for the thoughtful reply.

-Eric

P.S. If you have impressions of the older Theta units vs. the Yggdrasil it would be an addition I'm sure many would appreciate.
 
Jul 9, 2016 at 2:29 AM Post #344 of 1,366
 
Metruem Pavane might match or even beat yggy in some areas and vice versa. You really have to spend 3-5x Of yggy' at least to beat it.

 
I'll post my thoughts on the Metrum Pavane sometime in the next day or so; since I've already gotten to listen to it.  I have a good idea of where it stands in the grand scheme of things.

Didnt realize all of this took place today. 
 
After I purchased the stockholm my journey was pretty short. I really liked the Stockholm v.2 but it broke. So I bought the Metrum Musette, liked it but it had a bit of lower midrange warmth that was a little too natural and it was a little slow. Then I just jumped and went for the PAVANE. 
This thing is huge. 
My experience with the YGGY is short. I just recall it being not as musical as I was expecting. I was expecting a fuller sound I guess but that is probably just do to the short time with it. 
 
PAVANE here now with no real good reference and also I do not have the supporting components around it upgraded yet. I am just running USB for now and only for a short season. Also as soon as it got here I let go of my HD800S which really made me unable to hear differences. With my TH2, an HD650 loaner,  and Pavane I hear just about the most organic and correct sound I have ever heard through any gear, meet (only have been to a couple) or home. Through the times @Greed has offered good advice. He didn't declare a definitive winner between the Pavane and YGGY.
 
 
He put it like this...dont think he would mind...if so please forgive me... soooo sorry
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:
"Soundstage and imaging I would definitely give the nod to the Pavane. "
"the Yggy hits harder. It has a more prominent and punchier sound than the Pavane."
 
"The Yggy is precise, neutral, highly dynamic type sound. Not much warmth invovled, although a bit in the bass."
"The Pavane on the other hand seems to be faster, edgier, slightly more upfront type sound."
 
Those could have been preliminary impressions or something but I think it would be good for my man greed to chime in if he can. 
 
Also @Torq Hopefully you will be there on the 30th since you live in Seattle at the meet. Two Pavanes will be there then. 
 
i should have really asked him before posting this. I feel bad.
 

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