goodvibes said:

  Not much to patent, It's a cable with a purchased connector. They didn't reinvent the wheel here and 200v of low current isn't that difficult to accommodate. 

Click to expand...

Not much to patent, but most probably ENOUGH. Having a small diameter round cable with the lowest possible capacitance ( sooooooo desperately needed in stats ..) that is flexible yet tough enough borders on the proverbial sports bulldozer with low mileage - free to boot.
 
Such cable(s) most definitely do not exist off the shelf - no other use for them except electrostatic phones. 
 
Any connector allowing for this cable to be replaceable is a weak point of the system - and can not be made much/any smaller than the one used on Stax - if any measure of safety is to be maintained. The currents(s) portable stat amps are capable of are small - but contrary to dynamic phones, which are (generally ) safe,  you WOULD HAVE NOTICED should insulation/connector allow direct contact to skin. I can only guess, but most probably the cable in Shure is designed so that the outer insulation is the toughest part and least likely to be compromised - with the connections to the driver being the first priority after the safety first. The current in Shure is really small ( 1 mA IIRC ) - so it is not a health haphazard.
 
It is funny that both Shure closed IEM and Senn Orpheus appeared within two weeks of each other. Senn ingeniously solved the Aichille's heel of stat phones, THE CABLE - they place the output  transistors for the stators  directly into the headphone cup, with utmost minimum wiring (and hence stray capacitance ) between the output transistor and stator contacts; like ratio 1: 100 compared  to conventional cable any other non Orpheus 2 stat uses. Capacitances in small stat IEMs are particularly detrimental; first, cable of the only other stat IEM, Stax 001MK2 or  002 has MORE capacitance than the driver itself; I doubt Shure could do much about this sad fact, specially with round cable that is even worse regarding capacitance than flat one. 
 
You all want long(er) battery life; think of the fact this cable represents some 2/3rds of losses, which do not contribute to generating sound at all; it is all dissiapated as heat in the amp. Or, put otherwise, 2/3rds of the battery life gets wasted in the cable. And as people do not like carrying around BIG bricks that could accommodate bigger battery, .... There is no way that the solution used in incomparably bigger Orpheus 2 cups could be used in IEM sized headphone - simply no place - EVEN if Senn would agree to allow this to be used by other companies ( at substantial royalties to be paid by others , driving the end price up considerably ).
 
It is also why Orpheus 2 CAN NOT be used with any other existing electrostatic amplifier or transformer - just plain incompatible with anything else in existence. 

Hi everyone, can anyone think of the consequences on the KSE1500 product longevity and performance, if you are living in a country below the temperatures specs published by Shure (http://www.shure.com/americas/kse1500) below:
 

Operating Temperature Range

0° to 45° C (32° to 113° F)

Storage Temperature

-18° to 57° C (0° to 135° F)

I work in a place were during winter it is constantly -ve degrees Celcius and sometimes even below -18 degrees Celcius.
 
Thank you

simon t said:

  Hi everyone, can anyone think of the consequences on the KSE1500 product longevity and performance, if you are living in a country below the temperatures specs published by Shure (http://www.shure.com/americas/kse1500) below:
 

Operating Temperature Range

0° to 45° C (32° to 113° F)

Storage Temperature

-18° to 57° C (0° to 135° F)

I work in a place were during winter it is constantly -ve degrees Celcius and sometimes even below -18 degrees Celcius.
 
Thank you

Click to expand...

So low temperatures may be detrimental; because they usually are accompanied by the moisture/condense. 
 
Electrostatics can sound markedly different in varying degrees of relative humidity - and can develop arcing/shorts under less than ideal conditions, with changed SQ being warning long before the difference this drastic. 
 
As long electrostatics use surrounding air as dialectric in its gaps between the diaphragm and stators ( there were speakers that use inert gas, for electrical/sound reasons, something most impractical with headphones due to size and bulk ), they are subject to variations in temperature and humidity.
 
KSE 1500 might, but may not work acceptably under so adverse conditions; and its longevitiy may  well be affected. Operating them at the very edge of storage spec is sure to void any warranty. That is something only you can decide whether it is acceptable or not.

analogsurviver said:

  So low temperatures may be detrimental; because they usually are accompanied by the moisture/condense. 
 
Electrostatics can sound markedly different in varying degrees of relative humidity - and can develop arcing/shorts under less than ideal conditions, with changed SQ being warning long before the difference this drastic. 
 
As long electrostatics use surrounding air as dialectric in its gaps among rhe diaphragm and stators ( there were speakers that use inert gas, for electrical/sound reasons, something most impractical with headphones due to size and bulk ), they are subject to variations in temperature and humidity.
 
KSE 1500 might, but may not work acceptably under so adverse conditions; and its longevitiy may  well be affected. Operating them at the very edge of storage spec is sure to void any warranty. That is something only you can decide whether it is acceptable or not.

Click to expand...

 
Thank you for the clear response analogsurviver, appreciate it.
 
Really want to get this...Mmm... that might mean that during winter months, I should only use it in indoor environments with heating  ...
 
Cheers

For balance, is there any personal equipment where it is shown that it is okay to work in sub zero temperatures in their stats? Not to mention I would hope your body heat would cancel out a large proportion of the ambient temperature?!

analogsurviver said:

  Not much to patent, but most probably ENOUGH. Having a small diameter round cable with the lowest possible capacitance ( sooooooo desperately needed in stats ..) that is flexible yet tough enough borders on the proverbial sports bulldozer with low mileage - free to boot.
 
Such cable(s) most definitely do not exist off the shelf - no other use for them except electrostatic phones. 
 
Any connector allowing for this cable to be replaceable is a weak point of the system - and can not be made much/any smaller than the one used on Stax - if any measure of safety is to be maintained. The currents(s) portable stat amps are capable of are small - but contrary to dynamic phones, which are (generally ) safe,  you WOULD HAVE NOTICED should insulation/connector allow direct contact to skin. I can only guess, but most probably the cable in Shure is designed so that the outer insulation is the toughest part and least likely to be compromised - with the connections to the driver being the first priority after the safety first. The current in Shure is really small ( 1 mA IIRC ) - so it is not a health haphazard.
 
It is funny that both Shure closed IEM and Senn Orpheus appeared within two weeks of each other. Senn ingeniously solved the Aichille's heel of stat phones, THE CABLE - they place the output  transistors for the stators  directly into the headphone cup, with utmost minimum wiring (and hence stray capacitance ) between the output transistor and stator contacts; like ratio 1: 100 compared  to conventional cable any other non Orpheus 2 stat uses. Capacitances in small stat IEMs are particularly detrimental; first, cable of the only other stat IEM, Stax 001MK2 or  002 has MORE capacitance than the driver itself; I doubt Shure could do much about this sad fact, specially with round cable that is even worse regarding capacitance than flat one. 
 
You all want long(er) battery life; think of the fact this cable represents some 2/3rds of losses, which do not contribute to generating sound at all; it is all dissiapated as heat in the amp. Or, put otherwise, 2/3rds of the battery life gets wasted in the cable. And as people do not like carrying around BIG bricks that could accommodate bigger battery, .... There is no way that the solution used in incomparably bigger Orpheus 2 cups could be used in IEM sized headphone - simply no place - EVEN if Senn would agree to allow this to be used by other companies ( at substantial royalties to be paid by others , driving the end price up considerably ).
 
It is also why Orpheus 2 CAN NOT be used with any other existing electrostatic amplifier or transformer - just plain incompatible with anything else in existence. 

Click to expand...

 No current, no heat. Capacitance is important but there's nothing special about keeping it low in something that doesn't have to be shielded and the overall quantity of capacitance may or may not be important depending on the impedance. I quite like my modded round cables Stax SR-5. The connector they use is an off the shelf lemo. I'm not saying this stuff is easy but the principals have been known for over 3/4 of a century and modern commercial transducers working off these exact same principals have been around for about 60 years. I have a pair of Quad 57s that I won't part with and have worked on more electrostatics than I can count.
 
The cable is a chosen diameter, flexibility and resistance which may be more of what Sennheiser is referring to, for portability. There's not room in that cable for odd wraps or configs/spacing to significantly lower capacitance. It's a cable with with a durable insulator. The panel design is also likely lower impedance than most making capacitance less important than full size electrostatics. Probably takes more than a nF before anything noticeable happens.
 
I've heard the old Orpheus and to be honest, it wasn't for me even though I thought it quality kit and it was very detailed. Suffers a bit from what some modern Stax do as well by being a bit too ethereal. I find the new topology a bit odd with a tube design and solid state in the cups. I suspect getting this has as much to more to do with the very high output impedance of OTL designs in relation to the cable than the cable stat interface. 

duncan said:

For balance, is there any personal equipment where it is shown that it is okay to work in sub zero temperatures in their stats? Not to mention I would hope your body heat would cancel out a large proportion of the ambient temperature?!

Click to expand...

 
Hi Duncan,
 
You are right, never read that kind of stats in other dynamics/BAs/Hybrids IEMs. Just that, I believe not many people have experience with a portable electrostatic system; if Shure published it, i personally believe it means something (probably important).
 
Yes body temperatures helps to balance it, but not sure how significant the body warmth temperatures + your thick jacket pocket, offsets, lets say -18 degrees or below Celcius.
 
Cheers  

duncan said:

For balance, is there any personal equipment where it is shown that it is okay to work in sub zero temperatures in their stats? Not to mention I would hope your body heat would cancel out a large proportion of the ambient temperature?!

Click to expand...

I did not go on purpose into this - but the side of the ES transducer exposed to surrounding air temperature of say - 18 degrees Centigrade and the opposite adjacent to human body around 36 degrees Centigrade is asking for trouble. That's 54 degrees temp diff...
 
Measuring microphones from Bruel and Kjaer are specified AFTER so and so much time they have been turned on. Reason? they become QUITE warm to the touch, they have integrated "heating" in order to have the temperature gradient such to ALWAYS repel moisture/humidity out of the air gap. In other words, they are at slightly higher temp than the surrounding they are used in - ALWAYS.
 
It is the very system used in our famous Postojna Cave : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postojna_Cave  At first, some Italian firm did the PA system used for guided tours. It failed due to humidity in about a year or so. Then it was IIRC Philips' turn - it failed in about two-three years. Then one of our engineers came up with the solution; in each loudspeaker WITH PAPER DIAPHRAGM, he placed in series with the signal a small resistor. Although this resistor is detrimental in pure SQ sense, it keeps the temperature of each loudspeaker enclosure just slightly higher than the surrounding, keeping the temperature gradient in such a way to repel moisture - and the system now works flawlessly for decades, despite paper drivers used. It plays very quiet background music 24/7, 365 1/4/year, plus whatever required during guided tours.

Temperature shouldn't be a factor unless the diaphragm tension or elasticity changes but that would be true of dynamic drivers as well and likely to a greater degree. Unlikely significant here, especially after it plays for a bit.
 
If they are like most stats, air density will affect their sound somewhat. They tend to have less bass, efficiency and arc sooner in at higher altitudes, lower density. Probably not a significant issue
as I suspect they are impossible to arc in system and they are closed. May sound a hair leaner and need another click on the V control at altitude. I doubt there would be any qualitative compromises.

In the worse case low temperatures can make the cables stiff, but I don't think will damage the diaphragm .
I would recommend if you use it outside to wear a thick hat,and keep the DAC in a carrying case that will keep it warm,so the components will work properly.
Buy exposing it to cold for too long can damage both, so be careful.

goodvibes said:

  Temperature shouldn't be a factor unless the diaphragm tension or elasticity changes but that would be true of dynamic drivers as well and likely to a greater degree. Also unlikely here, especially after it plays for a bit.
 
If they are like most stats, air density will affect their sound somewhat. They tend to have less bass, efficiency and arc sooner in at higher altitudes, lower density. Probably not a significant issue here as I suspect they are impossible to arc in system and they are closed. May sound a hair leaner and need another click on the V control at altitude. I doubt there would be any qualitative compromises.

Click to expand...

 
Ever tried to listen to ESLs speakers in humid days ?
 
I remember an occasion where a wife of a friend thought the air in the big listening room containing Martin Logan Statement ( the original big behemoths, not the subsequent smaller version(s) ) was stale ( it was...) - and she opened the windows to let in some fresh air. Oh well - it was after the storm outside ... - and, all we could do was to jack up the heating and wait some 4-5 hours before things were back to Martin Logan friendly air conditions. 
 
That "friendly fire" did cut the listening session, supposed to last over the entire day,  in half - for it was utterly impossible to listen "in wet" to anything approaching the quality provided by the big stat if and when operated under optimum condition. 
 
Martin Logan has zero dust covers and is therefore the most at the mercy of air conditions - and works best for the same reason once air is "friendly". I would expect headphones to have dust covers - as fluff from human hair would otherwise very quickly clog the air gaps of ES transducer, rendering decreased SQ at first, total failure after a bit more time. But, the principle remains - air, temperature differences>moisture, high power electrostatic fields do not mix well in the long run.

Yes I have. Lots to dislike about Logans and yes, they should all have dust covers. That issue seems to be Logan specific, at least to that extent, and must be something about their specific design. Old KLH 9s didn't have dust covers and behaved themselves. Maybe it has something to do with all those spacers between the stators and diaphragm to allow the panels to bend without cupping(as much) and touching the stators. It's like they've taken this large panel and mad it into a row of little panels. No wonder they don't make bass. Lowish voltages, larger gaps and heavier diaphragms then most of their competition. Personal opinion and I'm an electrostatic fan but don't like any of them.
 
 If I lived in the tropics, I'd have a dehumidifier for the long term good of an electrostatic but it shouldn't do what Logans do. 
 
Lots of specific to model things being brought up here that shouldn't directly relate to the Shure which I suspect to be bulletproof.

goodvibes said:

   No current, no heat. Capacitance is important but there's nothing special about keeping it low in something that doesn't have to be shielded and the overall quantity of capacitance may or may not be important depending on the impedance. I quite like my modded round cables Stax SR-5. The connector they use is an off the shelf lemo. I'm not saying this stuff is easy but the principals have been known for over 3/4 of a century and modern commercial transducers working off these exact same principals have been around for about 60 years. I have a pair of Quad 57s that I won't part with and have worked on more electrostatics than I can count.
 
The cable is a chosen diameter, flexibility and resistance which may be more of what Sennheiser is referring to, for portability. There's not room in that cable for odd wraps or configs/spacing to significantly lower capacitance. It's a cable with with a durable insulator. The panel design is also likely lower impedance than most making capacitance less important than full size electrostatics. Probably takes more than a nF before anything noticeable happens.
 
I've heard the old Orpheus and to be honest, it wasn't for me even though I thought it quality kit and it was very detailed. Suffers a bit from what some modern Stax do as well by being a bit too ethereal. I find the new topology a bit odd with a tube design and solid state in the cups. I suspect getting this has as much to more to do with the very high output impedance of OTL designs in relation to the cable than the cable stat interface. 

Click to expand...

Oh, this, taken together,  IS the very misunderstanding of the electrostatics most people, even those who are familiar with and use them, usually can't get the full grasp of what is actually happening.
 
Cruel facts: the worst condition electrostatics have to operate under are headphones. Take Stax Lambda Pro, for example; the driver capacitance is roughly less than half the total capacitive load, the other half is "hidden" in the cable. It means that whatever the POWER bandwidth ( the frequency response up to which the system can work without distortion/limitting , which is NOT equal to the small signal frequency response ) the electrostatic amplifier is providing, it is cut in half or less. I forgot  the exact values, but it is approx 56 pF for the driver and approx 80 pF for the cable.
 
It is even worse with small portable SR-001MK2 - cable eating up 2/3rds or more of the entire capacitive load. On top of their far lower current capability amp(s) - as a full sized ES amp would drain batteries in minutes. Same/similar has to apply to KSE 1500 as well.
 
 The new Orpheus topology with the actual active element in the cup itself IS the breaktrough electrostatic headphones have been longing for from the day one. It brings the stray capacitance nearly to zero, in case od ES headphones that means doubling (or more ) of power bandwidth and frequency response , given the same size/power of the amplifier. One can increase the size of the amp n-times - and end up with an electr(i/o)(stati)c chair.  There are limits within this is allowed - in EU at least, there is impossible to sell high voltage amps once they pass certain amount of current they are capable of providing. 
 
I designed, in 1986, an amp and headphones that left the original Orpheus hopelessly in the dust. But they are in storage since the end of 1999 - as the amp is capable of 65 mA per stator, 1700 VACpp, meaning one has 4x 850 VDC (no signal present ) at 65 mA class A amp on his/hers head. That is WAY past lethal. The total performance was/is 50 kHz @-3 dB, at full output, in this case frequency response and power bandwidth being the same.
 
Senn has suceeded in extending the frequency response to 100 kHz while keeping the power of the amp to manageable/safe level with its new configutration, which, to my knowledge, has not been used for electrostatic transducer before. And I congratulate their team for coming up with this ingenious solution. The physical appeareance of the amp with its retracting tubes and control knobs etc is pure bling and could have been avoided while keeping the cost a bit more manageable - but the relocation of the active element into the cup itself is definitely clever move in the right direction.
 
This solution has been used for ages - in every capacitor principle microphone on the planet, from the day one. Yet applying it to high voltage high power for headphones (compared to minuscule requirements for the mics ) must have been quite a challenge. 

goodvibes said:

  Yes I have. Lots to dislike about Logans and yes, they should all have dust covers. That issue seems to be Logan specific, at least to that extent, and must be something about their specific design. Old KLH 9s didn't have dust covers and behaved themselves. Maybe it has something to do with all those spacers between the stators and diaphragm to allow the panels to bend without cupping(as much) and touching the stators. It's like they've taken this large panel and mad it into a row of little panels. No wonder they don't make bass. Lowish voltages, larger gaps and heavier diaphragms then most of their competition. Personal opinion and I'm an electrostatic fan but don't like any of them.
 
 If I lived in the tropics, I'd have a dehumidifier for the long term good of an electrostatic but it shouldn't do what Logans do. 
 
Lots of specific to model things being brought up here that shouldn't directly relate to the Shure which I suspect to be bulletproof.

Click to expand...

No such thing as bulletproof with electrostatics this small - there simply is no space/room for any decent size "frame" that could offer the "overengineering" required for them to remain bulletproof in the long run. They have to be about twice the precision/toughness of the Stax 0001MK2 - just to work from new. Everyday use on the go is quite a bit more rough than pampering them in the lab/home.
 
I do believe Shure went quite a few extra miles before deciding to start marketing such a novel product. Despite my experience with their track record regarding reliability and quality, particularly of their phono cartridges, leaves a LOT to be desired. I hope they got the KSE 1500 right.

If one is serious about the best sound he should sell everything else (perhaps except source gear) and get the new Orpheus. At least that's what I believe after watching Jude's video. Portability is overrated.