[AnakChan]

What if the DAP had the WiFi & the Bluetooth (with the ability to disable naturally), which adds 30g if that even. And it doesn't impact the sound of the DAP. Would that deter you all as audio enthusiasts from buying? Would any of you actually say "Yes it sounds good but I don't want to buy it cos it has all these extras which I don't need even though I can disable it?". I am going to guess most of you, if you like the sound, would still buy it. See DX100 as an example.

Then look at makers' perspective, "if we put these in & it doesn't change manufacturing costs much (which those who don't want would still buy it), we're merely expanding the target market."

I don't really see the loss - it's still an at least 90/10 win-win.

i.e. I don't see anything wrong with customers who are asking for these features.

 

[CosmicHolyGhost]

I suspect to enable wifi will logically mean using Android and that will consume more battery....
Pls save the juice for high end dac chip and power the opamp that can drive any cans in the world..

 

[waynes world]

Quote:

What if the DAP had the WiFi & the Bluetooth (with the ability to disable naturally), which adds 30g if that even. And it doesn't impact the sound of the DAP. Would that deter you all as audio enthusiasts from buying? Would any of you actually say "Yes it sounds good but I don't want to buy it cos it has all these extras which I don't need even though I can disable it?". I am going to guess most of you, if you like the sound, would still buy it. See DX100 as an example.

Then look at makers' perspective, "if we put these in & it doesn't change manufacturing costs much (which those who don't want would still buy it), we're merely expanding the target market."

I don't really see the loss - it's still an at least 90/10 win-win.

i.e. I don't see anything wrong with customers who are asking for these features.

 
Yeah, that's what I was trying to say. I mean, if there was an X5 with streaming capability and an X5 without, but otherwise they had the same features and the same SQ  and the same price and the same battery life etc, I know which one I would be buying.

 

[laon]

Quote:

What if the DAP had the WiFi & the Bluetooth (with the ability to disable naturally), which adds 30g if that even. And it doesn't impact the sound of the DAP. Would that deter you all as audio enthusiasts from buying? Would any of you actually say "Yes it sounds good but I don't want to buy it cos it has all these extras which I don't need even though I can disable it?". I am going to guess most of you, if you like the sound, would still buy it. See DX100 as an example.

Then look at makers' perspective, "if we put these in & it doesn't change manufacturing costs much (which those who don't want would still buy it), we're merely expanding the target market."

I don't really see the loss - it's still an at least 90/10 win-win.

i.e. I don't see anything wrong with customers who are asking for these features.

Oh but it will add to the cost alright, and no trivial one at that. Having wifi and bluetooth module alone will do no good, they will need to either develop their own module for it or use android, which complicate things even further, if they don't use android they need to add radio streaming capability on their own, next people will ask for browser since hey, they have wifi. Add the maintenance cost for it all (fw update, bugfix etc) for the final blow.
 
Now it is possible but Fiio is a new player in this market, they don't have nearly as much experience as long time player like Cowon and Apple, though they're improving fast and they might be able to pull it off I'd rather that they focus at what the X5 meant to be, a DAP with SQ as its strong point, and maybe with the knowledge and experience they get from X3 and X5 they then could make the dap for that particular segment someday.
 
I don't see much point adding internet streaming capability on reference DAP anyway, heck it'd probably sound better out of less resolving DAP like X3. At least for now.

 

[AnakChan]

I suspect to enable wifi will logically mean using Android and that will consume more battery....
Pls save the juice for high end dac chip and power the opamp that can drive any cans in the world..

 
Then you'll be talking about a completely different DAP altogether.

Note that WiFi & Bluetooth really doesn't take up that much power as opposed to other components such as the display screen, or even your proposed higher ended DAC, or OpAmp.

But for a moment, let's entertain that idea of ditching the WiFi and the Bluetooth, in favour of putting in a higher ended DAC or upgraded OpAmp. Would that be the same DAP product anymore? Most likely not. And if not, it's a high chance the maker will market it as a different tier (and probably higher modelled) DAP, in which case we'll be talking about a completely different pricing model.

 

[CosmicHolyGhost]

I keep my fingers crossed for X7

 

[AnakChan]

Oh but it will add to the cost alright, and no trivial one at that. Having wifi and bluetooth module alone will do no good, they will need to either develop their own module for it or use android, which complicate things even further, if they don't use android they need to add radio streaming capability on their own, next people will ask for browser since hey, they have wifi. Add the maintenance cost for it all (fw update, bugfix etc) for the final blow.
 
Now it is possible but Fiio is a new player in this market, they don't have nearly as much experience as long time player like Cowon and Apple, though they're improving fast and they might be able to pull it off I'd rather that they focus at what the X5 meant to be, a DAP with SQ as its strong point, and maybe with the knowledge and experience they get from X3 and X5 they then could make the dap for that particular segment someday.
 
I don't see much point adding internet streaming capability on reference DAP anyway, heck it'd probably sound better out of less resolving DAP like X3. At least for now.

 
I'm going to break this discussion down into multiple parts cos it's become a multi-faceted multi-question/answer post.

#1 I don't see my question isn't answered....fundamentally, if a reference DAP had all those features which you can disable, and it's sound quality isn't compromised, would it stop you from buying that DAP? That is the main point I'm driving at.

#2 If you say it'll add a non-trivial cost, what would it be? How much are you talking about? OK probably most if not all of us who aren't working for Fiio or for auditors responsible for Fiio's books won't know the hard and fast figures but may be able to guestimate in terms of percentages. Just how much would that additional WiFi and Bluetooth feature be in a percentage of overall product manufacturing and maintenance cost? Are you talking about 2%, 10%, 20%, or 50% of the overall costs? A reminder to factor in R&D, product manufacturing, software/firmware development, UAT time, post sales maintenance support, etc. (both parts and labour). And let's further hypothosize mass production here so that the larger volume for the lowest pricing per unit.

#3 Just a comment: On a side note, there are some quite well respected audiophiles here I know who have accute hearing and have high end gear who are quite satisfied with Spotify. That's not to say that they cannot hear a difference as they can. But the quality is sufficient to their expectation to enjoy the music. And for myself even, although I carry around 24/192 FLAC and DSD files in my AK120, I honestly can say that I do listen to 256VBR too and the "loss" I get there isn't enough to make me want to stop listening to music.

 

[bowei006]

Quote:

#3 Just a comment: On a side note, there are some quite well respected audiophiles here I know who have accute hearing and have high end gear who are quite satisfied with Spotify. That's not to say that they cannot hear a difference as they can. But the quality is sufficient to their expectation to enjoy the music. And for myself even, although I carry around 24/192 FLAC and DSD files in my AK120, I honestly can say that I do listen to 256VBR too and the "loss" I get there isn't enough to make me want to stop listening to music.

This is something that Head-Fi in general needs to understand and that most won't be able to have the blessed hearing to tell it apart as well.

 

[CosmicHolyGhost]

I guess it all boils down to priority. From my experience in work, adding one more feature will indeed increase the risk of something else may go wrong or at the expense of quality (not necessary sound in this case). The cost of the new feature will mostly be transferred to the customers. We understand that adding the new feature will no doubt increase the market share as the product becomes more popular among the customers. It is a business after all...
 
On a side note, it will be really cool someone to release a really really small DAP that costs less than 30usd that has dual card slots, small screen, no phone out but just usb out to other DAC/AMP.

 

[Foldedpencil]

Quote:

I guess it all boils down to priority. From my experience in work, adding one more feature will indeed increase the risk of something else may go wrong or at the expense of quality (not necessary sound in this case). The cost of the new feature will mostly be transferred to the customers. We understand that adding the new feature will no doubt increase the market share as the product becomes more popular among the customers. It is a business after all...
 
On a side note, it will be really cool someone to release a really really small DAP that costs less than 30usd that has dual card slots, small screen, no phone out but just usb out to other DAC/AMP.

That would be really cool!  I really wish there was something like the Nano 6th Gen with expandable storage.  Pair that with 2 x 64 GB cards and something like RSA's The Shadow for one slick portable rig.

 

[hoichi]

I suspect to enable wifi will logically mean using Android and that will consume more battery....
Pls save the juice for high end dac chip and power the opamp that can drive any cans in the world..

 
Then you'll be talking about a completely different DAP altogether.

 

Completely different from what? I don't see it as all that different from what FiiO seems to be planning for the X5.

 

[Wyd4]

If they could make an e17,x3,e12 hybrid I would be signing up for them to take my money.
As it is the x3 was pretty much an e17 as far as DAC/amp was concerned.
So make it as powerful as an e12 and give it USB input for audio and take my money.

 

[AmberOzL]

Quote:

If they could make an e17,x3,e12 hybrid I would be signing up for them to take my money.
As it is the x3 was pretty much an e17 as far as DAC/amp was concerned.
So make it as powerful as an e12 and give it USB input for audio and take my money.

You want fries with that?
 
I think AK daps are also usb dacs but their quality / price ratio is, well, not something I want to discuss here let's say.
 
FiiO covers all the things, it has been discussed before. Whatever you need, they have something to offer. Combining all of them doesn't mean it will be an ultimate device. It will most probably have serious cons, like battery life, size.
 
I think it is more important to have devices, which has their own special functions and they do it best. Mixing it up usually brings a lot of cons. Look at the example of DX100, people love it for the sound, hate it for the battery life, UI and size. AK120 is there, looks pretty much nice with no obvious big con EXCEPT 1300 € price tag. How many of us would like to pay over 1k for a dap and how many of us are able to pay that money.
 
I think what FiiO does it pretty good. Making it pure sound and functioning nicely is important, because in the market we have a lot of ''mix'' devices and they all come up with their negative sides.

 

[Wyd4]

You want fries with that?

I think AK daps are also usb dacs but their quality / price ratio is, well, not something I want to discuss here let's say.

FiiO covers all the things, it has been discussed before. Whatever you need, they have something to offer. Combining all of them doesn't mean it will be an ultimate device. It will most probably have serious cons, like battery life, size.

I think it is more important to have devices, which has their own special functions and they do it best. Mixing it up usually brings a lot of cons. Look at the example of DX100, people love it for the sound, hate it for the battery life, UI and size. AK120 is there, looks pretty much nice with no obvious big con EXCEPT 1300 € price tag. How many of us would like to pay over 1k for a dap and how many of us are able to pay that money.

I think what FiiO does it pretty good. Making it pure sound and functioning nicely is important, because in the market we have a lot of ''mix'' devices and they all come up with their negative sides.

I was merely stating the dream combo.
I agree in that specific products for specific roles. Bang for buck it is hard to look past fiio.
I currently have the e17 and e12.
As far as I was aware the x3 was more or less a dap strapped to an e17 hardware wise (sans the inputs obviously).
Call me crazy but how hard would it be to use some of the amp hardware from the e12?.
Again I agree you will always get better results with products that fit specific roles, and though what I said may be unrealistic, I didn't exactly think it was a pipe dream either.

Not to mention the most popular item on the pole at the start of this post is USB DAC capability. So I am not the only one with this thought.

What ever they come up with at fiio will no doubt be great and make it's way into my house anyway.

Scott

 

[AmberOzL]

Quote:

I was merely stating the dream combo.
I agree in that specific products for specific roles. Bang for buck it is hard to look past fiio.
I currently have the e17 and e12.
As far as I was aware the x3 was more or less a dap strapped to an e17 hardware wise (sans the inputs obviously).
Call me crazy but how hard would it be to use some of the amp hardware from the e12?.
Again I agree you will always get better results with products that fit specific roles, and though what I said may be unrealistic, I didn't exactly think it was a pipe dream either.

Not to mention the most popular item on the pole at the start of this post is USB DAC capability. So I am not the only one with this thought.

What ever they come up with at fiio will no doubt be great and make it's way into my house anyway.

Scott

Hi Scott,
 
Well we all have dream combos but I think current products showed us, that dream combo is quite unreal, they all come with their limitations and negative sides. I don't mind having 2-3 different devices for specific purposes as long as they do their job flawlessly.
 
The purpose of X5 is this too, perfectly functioning Reference Level Dap. To be honest, I rather to have it simple but perfect instead of doing everything but none of them are on high levels and already brought tons of bugs and cons.
 
USB DAC, I admit it would be nice feature, but if it is not there therefore it won't increase the price, I really don't care about it all.
 
About the E12 type of driving power. X3 is already quite powerful for a dap at this price. James said X5 will be a little bit more powerful than X3. I think apart from those maniac ortho's, X5 will be able to drive pretty much everything. What I mean is, most probably you won't looking for extra juice. So E12 can be an extra but not a need. I may be wrong though, only James's team know how powerful it will be.