[songmic]

Those Lorenz SEL labelled ones are not the original Lorenz tubes made in Stuttgart, West Germany. I wouldn't spend my money on them if I were you.
 
Quote:

Anyone try these?

http://www.tubemonger.com/MPs_MINT_NOS_Ei_PCC88_1968_Lorenz_SEL_Falcon_logo_p/801.htm

 

[kskwerl]

Quote:

Those Lorenz SEL labelled ones are not the original Lorenz tubes made in Stuttgart, West Germany. I wouldn't spend my money on them if I were you.
 

Thanks!
 
If you don't mind explaining to me, how did you know that? I'm pretty new to tubes

 

[olor1n]

Quote:

Selling my Lyr. These were purchased from tubemonger and have about 100 hours on them. The brown Lorenz label and Made in Germany are faint but readable. Aussie Head-Fiers get priority. PM me if you're interested. 

 
 

 
Too many PMs to respond to individually. I've now listed the Stuttgarts in the FS section. Please refer to responses there.

 

[kskwerl]

The only tubes I've tried in the Lyr are the JJ E88CC's, GE's from schiit, Sylvania 6BZ7's. I've been reading this thread for a while and there just seems to be so many choices. Can anyone point me in the right direction as to a tube that would really lift a veil as compared to the tubes I've tried. I mean when I went from the JJ's to schiits GE's I thought they were pretty great, I also thought the Sylvania's were good too but I figure that it just because I haven't tried other higher tier tubes.

 

[songmic]

Quote:

Thanks!
 
If you don't mind explaining to me, how did you know that? I'm pretty new to tubes

 
There are two types of Lorenz tubes:
 
#1. Made in Stuttgart, West Germany from 5~60's.
#2. Made in Eastern European countries from the late 60's and onward. Relabelled by Lorenz as SEL.
 
#1 tubes are older, rarer, and thus demand a much higher price than #2 tubes. #2 tubes weren't even made in Germany; they were made in Eastern European countries and simply relabelled by Lorenz with the logo "SEL" after Lorenz stopped making its own tubes. Even though #1 tubes are older, they are superior in quality to the relatively newer #2 tubes in every aspect, because they were made by West Germany's high-precision technology and contain a good amount rare earth minerals that are hardly found in tubes made later.
 
It's very easy to tell whether a Lorenz tube is #1 or #2. #1 tubes have brown-colored "Lorenz" logo inside a oval shape, with the words "made in Germany." #2 tubes usually have the "Lorenz" logo in white without the oval, and also has the logo "SEL."
 
This is an example of a #1 Lorenz tube.
http://www.tubemongerlib.com/gallery2/v/6DJ8/Lorenz+Stuttgart+PCC88+3-MICA+Gray+Shield+1960s+-+IV+-+Made+in+Germany.jpg.html
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kskwerl /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
The only tubes I've tried in the Lyr are the JJ E88CC's, GE's from schiit, Sylvania 6BZ7's. I've been reading this thread for a while and there just seems to be so many choices. Can anyone point me in the right direction as to a tube that would really lift a veil as compared to the tubes I've tried. I mean when I went from the JJ's to schiits GE's I thought they were pretty great, I also thought the Sylvania's were good too but I figure that it just because I haven't tried other higher tier tubes.

 
Honestly, I don't recommend the stock JJ E88CC tubes that Schiit offers; on the other hand, the stock GE 6BZ7 tubes are pretty good for their price IMO. However, you can get a much better performance out of your Lyr with proper tube rolling. If you're looking for some top-tier tubes, expect to spend at least around $150~200, possibly higher. Although people have different musical tastes and the results may vary depending on your audio chain, here are some tips:
 
1. Look for old, vintage tubes (preferably those made in the 5~60's) made by companies like Amperex, Siemens (also known as Siemens & Halske), or Lorenz (#1). These are arguably the most sought-after tubes in this forum. Each company's line of tubes has its unique sound signature, but I don't think you can go wrong with most of them.
 
2. Look for E88CC(=6922), E188CC(=7308), or CCa tubes from companies I mentioned above. E88CC are generally superior to ECC88(=6DJ8) tubes, and CCa are actually E88CC tubes that have been hand-picked among them to be of higher quality. E188CC is a superior version of E88CC and thus have a slightly different design, although some claim that certain E88CC and especially CCa rivals them in sonic quality. YMMV.
 
3. PCC88 tubes aren't recommened by Schiit because they use a different voltage (7V) compared to the other tubes (6V - Lyr's default voltage setting), but since Lyr auto-biases voltage, I haven't heard of anyone, including myself, have technical issues while using PCC88's. I haven't heard of PCC88 tubes made by Amperex or Siemens, but Lorenz PCC88 are well-known throughout this community as one of the best tubes out there for Lyr. Of course they have to be genuine, Germany-made tubes; not SEL rebranded ones.
 
4. If you're looking for Amperex tubes, make sure they were made in either USA or Holland. The best kinds of Amperex tubes have a "PQ (stands for premium quality)" logo in white color. These are called Amperex PQ White Labels, and are generally considered to be one of the best tubes out there. Holland tubes are rarer than American ones and therefore are of higher price, but honestly there isn't much difference between the two - both are very good. There is also something called a getter: while I can't say whether getters affect sound quality, D-shaped getters are somewhat more expensive than O-shaped or halo getters because they are older and rarer.
 
Some rare Amperex tubes have "pinched waists" instead of a typical, straight waist. These are manufacturing flaws, but some people claim that the pinched waist shape of these tubes make them sound better, so these "flawed" ones are actually more expensive than regular ones.
 
5. If you're looking for Siemens tubes, which should be made in Germany, try to look for tubes with "Gray Shields" instead of silver/chrome shields or no shield. Gray shields are the best of them - obviously having a shield is better than no shield, and the reason why gray shields are superior to silver(=chrome) ones is that they use some quality rare earth minerals - which makes their surface color gray compared to bare metallic shields. The same rule applies to Lorenz tubes.
 
6. As for Lorenz tubes, definitely look for #1 tubes - there is no comparison between #1 and #2. Gray Shields are preferable, as well as having 3-mica (or trimica) instead of 2-mica.
 
And here are a few examples of so-called "best tubes."
 
- Amperex PQ White Label 6922, D-getter, Pinched Waist (according to Joe's Tube Lore, these are his reference tubes)
- Amperex PQ White Label 7308, O-getter
- Siemens & Halske E188CC, Gray Shield
- Siemens & Halske CCa, Gray Shield
- Lorenz Stuttgart PCC88 3-Mica, Gray Shield

 

[dailydoseofdaly]

Nice write up. Might also want to consider adding telefunken and mullard to the list.
Also the lorenz stuttgart logos come in white and black as well.

 

[kskwerl]

Songmic thanks for taking the time to respond to me, now at least I know what to look for. I got a good/bad feeling about this lol bad being I'm gonna end of dropping a lot of dough on some tubes!

 

[Lord Soth]

Quote:

I've bought a couple pairs from musculitohifi, and they both tested NOS and were genuine (correct and proper date/code etching, unique Siemens riser crease, etc.) Sonically, they sounded identical to other CCa's I've had. I don't believe the newish boxes were genuine issue, but they were authentic Siemens & Halske boxes (or at least seemed to be). He does a fair amount of volume, so it's virtually impossible to not collect any negative feedback. A lost package, is generally enough to cause some to give negative feedback. On affiliation or alliance - just sharing my experiences, which overall were good.

 
Hi Misterrogers,
 
I have gotten some Siemens CCas from Musculitohifi before and also from other sources.
 
(Putting on my flamesuit!)
 
I scrutinised and compared the CCas I got from this particular Ebay Seller and also with the other CCas in my possession.
 
There are some red flags thrown up by Musculitohifi's "endless" supply of CCa
 
1. CCa wordings.
 
The 1st 2 pictures show the CCa wordings from other sellers and also from my other CCas obtained from other sources.
Play extra attention to the spacing between CCa.
Other CCas appear as "C (space) C (space) a"

 

 
You can see that the "CCa" wordings from other tube sellers have spacing between each syllable.
 
However, the CCas sold by this Ebay seller have all the wordings squashed together very tightly without any spacing.
The picture directly below is from one of the CCas grey shields sold by him.
 

 
It is very suspicious for the manufacturer's printing to be especially different for this Ebay seller.
 
Also, the CCas I got from this seller showed that they were a bit too minty in print for a real NOS tube.
In short, they are too perfect!
 
2. ≠ (Uneual sign) Siemens Munich Etching
 
All my other Siemens CCas have this ≠ etching on the tubes.
In fact, all my other Siemens Halske tubes have the ≠ etching and they range from the lowly PCC88, to ECC88, E88CC, E188CC and E288CC. (Yes, I have the whole range of the Siemens Tubes!)
I have not encountered any Siemens Halske tubes before without the ≠ etching.
 
However, the Siemens CCas I bought from this Ebay seller do not have the ≠ etching.
 
3. New Boxes
The boxes provided by this Ebay seller are obviously brand new.
My other Siemens CCas with Grey shields have the old Siemens Halske Blue and Yellow box and so I have also acquired the knack of figuring out what are real old and aged boxes.
 
4. Internal Structures
Yes, I compared all the internal structures of the CCas from this seller and they check out fine.
However, there are many double staged getter support valves with grey shields made by Siemens.
There are also stories of a syndicate (in Switzerland) which has been relabelling tubes and passing them off as more expensive tubes.
 
IMHO, there is a chance that this seller is relabelling other Siemens tubes as "CCas".
 
(Taking off my flamesuit now)
 
So anyone who is thinking of buying Siemens CCas from this seller, I urge you to apply caution and not to spend too much.
I would not bid too much if I were buying tubes from this seller.

 

[Lord Soth]

Quote:

 
......There is also something called a getter: while I can't say whether getters affect sound quality, D-shaped getters are somewhat more expensive than O-shaped or halo getters because they are older and rarer.
 
 

Hi songmic, first of all, your summary is FANTASTIC!
BRAVO to you for your efforts!

 
As for the getter, IMHO, the getter itself does not affect the sound quality.
However, it can be used as an accurate gauge of the age of the tube and hence the sound quality.
 
The oldest vacuum tubes had the D-shaped getters.
This applies not just to the 6DJ8 family but also to other tubes.
This can be considered to be a General rule to vacuum tubes.
 
Another general rule to vacuum tubes is that the oldest ones (within each brand and line) tend to sound better than the newer ones.
 
So that is why many tube rollers make the statement that D-Getter tubes sound the best!
I have done this comparison myself and I find that it is very true in general.
E.g., the D-getter tubes in the 6DJ8 family have a 3D effect which is less pronounced than their O-getter siblings within the same family.

 

[Misterrogers]

I second that - good job Songmic! I third what Lord Soth said re: getter. For the sake of clarity and reinforcing tube facts, the 'getter' is actually the reflective 'flash' usually inside the top of the tube (their are some exceptions to the placement depending on the tube type/design - an example would be the RCA clear tops). the 'o' or 'd' is often referred to as the 'getterer' by old timers. It's only useful period is during the construction of the tube, after a vacuum is applied to the tube and a charge is applied to 'flash' the minerals to the inside of the tube. After flashing, the getterer serves no other purpose (other than as Lord Soth noted, in helping us identify tubes of a better 'vintage'). Older tubes tend to be better because of 1) liberal use of rare earth minerals that are either not used today, or are used more sparingly or more diluted, and 2) construction techniques that seem to not have been handed down, are lost, or are too time consuming to be with recreating.
 
Re: CCa's - no need for the flame suit 

 I have no stake in the seller, and I can only speak for the tubes I've bought from him, which have checked out to my satisfaction (print, Siemens markings, correct structure). That's certainly not to say that he doesn't or hasn't floated some fakes. I do agree that it's a bit odd that he seems to have a never ending supply.
Quote:

Hi songmic, first of all, your summary is FANTASTIC!
BRAVO to you for your efforts!

 
As for the getter, IMHO, the getter itself does not affect the sound quality.
However, it can be used as an accurate gauge of the age of the tube and hence the sound quality.
 
The oldest vacuum tubes had the D-shaped getters.
This applies not just to the 6DJ8 family but also to other tubes.
This can be considered to be a General rule to vacuum tubes.
 
Another general rule to vacuum tubes is that the oldest ones (within each brand and line) tend to sound better than the newer ones.
 
So that is why many tube rollers make the statement that D-Getter tubes sound the best!
I have done this comparison myself and I find that it is very true in general.
E.g., the D-getter tubes in the 6DJ8 family have a 3D effect which is less pronounced than their O-getter siblings within the same family.

 

[Lord Soth]

Quote:

 
Too many PMs to respond to individually. I've now listed the Stuttgarts in the FS section. Please refer to responses there.

 
Hi olor1n,
 
Putting an add for your Stuttgart tubes over here would be analogous to throwing a juicy live fish into a sea of hungry sharks and piranhas!!!
 
Have you received >200 PMs by now?
 

 

[Lord Soth]

Quote:

Can anyone point me in the right direction as to a tube that would really lift a veil as compared to the tubes I've tried........

 
IMHO, to lift a sonic veil. You can't go wrong with any of the German Tubes (i.e TELEFUNKEN, SIEMENS, VALVO, LORENZ, ) mentioned by Brent Jesse over here.
http://www.audiotubes.com/6dj8.htm
 
He is a reliable tube seller btw and I have managed to get tubes from him without any major problems.
 
As for cost, you don't have to get the ultimate (and expensive) CCas to experience music without the proverbial "veil".
For example, a basic Siemens ECC88 or PCC88 would be good enough for most folks!
This is a linear tube with great response at both ends.
 
However, if you don't mind sacrificing the low end bass, the Telefunken 6DJ8 or PCC88 with <> bottom is a tube with some of the best sonic clarity with great instrument separation.

 

[netbususer]

Looking for a tube:
 
Primarily concerned with: Resolution, Imaging, Soundstage
 
What would you recommend?
 
Right now I'm using a Mullard CV2493 in the front stage and using Telefunken PCC88 tubes for the L and R channel with a Tung Sol 5Y3GT rectifier. It sounds very nice but you know how this audio thing works... always chasing something better! Recommend me the best tube that you can find! I know the Lorenz is awesome but you can't find them anywhere...
 
Thanks in advance!

 

[Lord Soth]

Quote:

Looking for a tube:
 
Primarily concerned with: Resolution, Imaging, Soundstage
 
What would you recommend?
 
Right now I'm using a Mullard CV2493 in the front stage and using Telefunken PCC88 tubes for the L and R channel with a Tung Sol 5Y3GT rectifier. It sounds very nice but you know how this audio thing works... always chasing something better! Recommend me the best tube that you can find! I know the Lorenz is awesome but you can't find them anywhere...
 
Thanks in advance!

Its time to meet No.2

 

 
Until my Lorenz tubes showed up, I really preferred the Siemens CCa.
 
For ultimate resolution (i.e. lack of veil), without any hesitation, I would say that it would be any Siemens CCa out there.
As long as it is one with a double staged getter support (aka 2 mica version).
Grey shields are slightly warmer than Silver shields.
If your audio chain is already "too" bright, I would avoid any Silver shield version but this is audio chain and user preference dependent.
 
Imaging and Soundstage are more pronounced in D-Getter Grey Shields. In other words, the 3D sound effects are more dramatic.
They are sill excellent in the O-Getter Grey Shields.
 
Sample photo of a double staged Siemens CCa below.

 
As for where all the Lorenz tubes have ended up......
I blame this guy!
 

 

[songmic]

Quote:

I second that - good job Songmic! I third what Lord Soth said re: getter. For the sake of clarity and reinforcing tube facts, the 'getter' is actually the reflective 'flash' usually inside the top of the tube (their are some exceptions to the placement depending on the tube type/design - an example would be the RCA clear tops). the 'o' or 'd' is often referred to as the 'getterer' by old timers. It's only useful period is during the construction of the tube, after a vacuum is applied to the tube and a charge is applied to 'flash' the minerals to the inside of the tube. After flashing, the getterer serves no other purpose (other than as Lord Soth noted, in helping us identify tubes of a better 'vintage'). Older tubes tend to be better because of 1) liberal use of rare earth minerals that are either not used today, or are used more sparingly or more diluted, and 2) construction techniques that seem to not have been handed down, are lost, or are too time consuming to be with recreating.

 
Haha, well I gotta admit most of what I know about tubes came from you, Sifu Misterrogers! I had done some research about getters too, and they are used to create the vacuum state of the tube upon its completion by absorbing the gas inside. So logically thinking, I don't see how the getter shape can affect sound. However, like many of you have said, D-shaped getter is a proof that it is an older tube, and since older tubes are generally rarer and better, it makes sense that these command higher price.
 
Still, I believe the O-getter Amperex PQ 7308's you've sent me are just as good as any D-getter ones made before them. Can't wait to replace my current tubes with those!