[WesternE]

This amp has the tubes biased at a low mA. After years of dealing with this to this tube this is not is not a great operating point, So the 6922 is a poor choice as their operating range is more suitable with each half biased at 10mA. Tubes that sound good with this amp are white label Amperex 6DJ8, the orange label 6DJ8 is aslo good and better likelyhood of obtaining a pair with some GM left. Best thing is to upgrade the B+ transformer to a higher watted which allows a bias to 8-10 mA per side. The 8416 can be obtained with as true NOS (but need 12.6V heat), most any other 6DJ8 on the market has been used and abused. So when upgrading the transformer possible find one wih a 12.6V for the 8416 or a new enclosure for a sepate 12.V transformer. The results are much better than spending a fortune "NOS" tubes.

 

[WesternE]

dp

 

[MrScary]

Quote:

 
There are two types of Lorenz tubes:
 
#1. Made in Stuttgart, West Germany from 5~60's.
#2. Made in Eastern European countries from the late 60's and onward. Relabelled by Lorenz as SEL.
 
#1 tubes are older, rarer, and thus demand a much higher price than #2 tubes. #2 tubes weren't even made in Germany; they were made in Eastern European countries and simply relabelled by Lorenz with the logo "SEL" after Lorenz stopped making its own tubes. Even though #1 tubes are older, they are superior in quality to the relatively newer #2 tubes in every aspect, because they were made by West Germany's high-precision technology and contain a good amount rare earth minerals that are hardly found in tubes made later.
 
It's very easy to tell whether a Lorenz tube is #1 or #2. #1 tubes have brown-colored "Lorenz" logo inside a oval shape, with the words "made in Germany." #2 tubes usually have the "Lorenz" logo in white without the oval, and also has the logo "SEL."
 
This is an example of a #1 Lorenz tube.
http://www.tubemongerlib.com/gallery2/v/6DJ8/Lorenz+Stuttgart+PCC88+3-MICA+Gray+Shield+1960s+-+IV+-+Made+in+Germany.jpg.html
 
 
Honestly, I don't recommend the stock JJ E88CC tubes that Schiit offers; on the other hand, the stock GE 6BZ7 tubes are pretty good for their price IMO. However, you can get a much better performance out of your Lyr with proper tube rolling. If you're looking for some top-tier tubes, expect to spend at least around $150~200, possibly higher. Although people have different musical tastes and the results may vary depending on your audio chain, here are some tips:
 
1. Look for old, vintage tubes (preferably those made in the 5~60's) made by companies like Amperex, Siemens (also known as Siemens & Halske), or Lorenz (#1). These are arguably the most sought-after tubes in this forum. Each company's line of tubes has its unique sound signature, but I don't think you can go wrong with most of them.
 
2. Look for E88CC(=6922), E188CC(=7308), or CCa tubes from companies I mentioned above. E88CC are generally superior to ECC88(=6DJ8) tubes, and CCa are actually E88CC tubes that have been hand-picked among them to be of higher quality. E188CC is a superior version of E88CC and thus have a slightly different design, although some claim that certain E88CC and especially CCa rivals them in sonic quality. YMMV.
 
3. PCC88 tubes aren't recommened by Schiit because they use a different voltage (7V) compared to the other tubes (6V - Lyr's default voltage setting), but since Lyr auto-biases voltage, I haven't heard of anyone, including myself, have technical issues while using PCC88's. I haven't heard of PCC88 tubes made by Amperex or Siemens, but Lorenz PCC88 are well-known throughout this community as one of the best tubes out there for Lyr. Of course they have to be genuine, Germany-made tubes; not SEL rebranded ones.
 
4. If you're looking for Amperex tubes, make sure they were made in either USA or Holland. The best kinds of Amperex tubes have a "PQ (stands for premium quality)" logo in white color. These are called Amperex PQ White Labels, and are generally considered to be one of the best tubes out there. Holland tubes are rarer than American ones and therefore are of higher price, but honestly there isn't much difference between the two - both are very good. There is also something called a getter: while I can't say whether getters affect sound quality, D-shaped getters are somewhat more expensive than O-shaped or halo getters because they are older and rarer.
 
Some rare Amperex tubes have "pinched waists" instead of a typical, straight waist. These are manufacturing flaws, but some people claim that the pinched waist shape of these tubes make them sound better, so these "flawed" ones are actually more expensive than regular ones.
 
5. If you're looking for Siemens tubes, which should be made in Germany, try to look for tubes with "Gray Shields" instead of silver/chrome shields or no shield. Gray shields are the best of them - obviously having a shield is better than no shield, and the reason why gray shields are superior to silver(=chrome) ones is that they use some quality rare earth minerals - which makes their surface color gray compared to bare metallic shields. The same rule applies to Lorenz tubes.
 
6. As for Lorenz tubes, definitely look for #1 tubes - there is no comparison between #1 and #2. Gray Shields are preferable, as well as having 3-mica (or trimica) instead of 2-mica.
 
And here are a few examples of so-called "best tubes."
 
- Amperex PQ White Label 6922, D-getter, Pinched Waist (according to Joe's Tube Lore, these are his reference tubes)
- Amperex PQ White Label 7308, O-getter
- Siemens & Halske E188CC, Gray Shield
- Siemens & Halske CCa, Gray Shield
- Lorenz Stuttgart PCC88 3-Mica, Gray Shield

Nice to see someone paying attention in the Forum Nice write up and staying on the topic... Also check www.tubeworld.com not to buy he charges up the booty but he has all of the tubes broken out as Tubelore does I like to look at both their are many many more tubes not on your list that are less expensive and when you get into the 60's tubes your audio chain has such an impact and your headphones.. I can put on my Ultrasone Editon 8's and they sound way different than my Denon 7000's etc and I have different tubes for different phones.... So if you only use one set of phones it narrows it down. Some other tubes to look for that at times you can pick up for a steal are the Mullard's the Brimars alot of the Amperex in the 6JDB line are less expensive I have a script I wrote about a year ago that gives me a list of any tubes that I seek I just happened to be bored and looked manually their are tons of great tubes on Ebay right now for cheap... 

 

[MrScary]

Quote:

 
Hi Misterrogers,
 
I have gotten some Siemens CCas from Musculitohifi before and also from other sources.
 
(Putting on my flamesuit!)
 
I scrutinised and compared the CCas I got from this particular Ebay Seller and also with the other CCas in my possession.
 
There are some red flags thrown up by Musculitohifi's "endless" supply of CCa
 
1. CCa wordings.
 
The 1st 2 pictures show the CCa wordings from other sellers and also from my other CCas obtained from other sources.
Play extra attention to the spacing between CCa.
Other CCas appear as "C (space) C (space) a"

 

 
You can see that the "CCa" wordings from other tube sellers have spacing between each syllable.
 
However, the CCas sold by this Ebay seller have all the wordings squashed together very tightly without any spacing.
The picture directly below is from one of the CCas grey shields sold by him.
 

 
It is very suspicious for the manufacturer's printing to be especially different for this Ebay seller.
 
Also, the CCas I got from this seller showed that they were a bit too minty in print for a real NOS tube.
In short, they are too perfect!
 
2. ≠ (Uneual sign) Siemens Munich Etching
 
All my other Siemens CCas have this ≠ etching on the tubes.
In fact, all my other Siemens Halske tubes have the ≠ etching and they range from the lowly PCC88, to ECC88, E88CC, E188CC and E288CC. (Yes, I have the whole range of the Siemens Tubes!)
I have not encountered any Siemens Halske tubes before without the ≠ etching.
 
However, the Siemens CCas I bought from this Ebay seller do not have the ≠ etching.
 
3. New Boxes
The boxes provided by this Ebay seller are obviously brand new.
My other Siemens CCas with Grey shields have the old Siemens Halske Blue and Yellow box and so I have also acquired the knack of figuring out what are real old and aged boxes.
 
4. Internal Structures
Yes, I compared all the internal structures of the CCas from this seller and they check out fine.
However, there are many double staged getter support valves with grey shields made by Siemens.
There are also stories of a syndicate (in Switzerland) which has been relabelling tubes and passing them off as more expensive tubes.
 
IMHO, there is a chance that this seller is relabelling other Siemens tubes as "CCas".
 
(Taking off my flamesuit now)
 
So anyone who is thinking of buying Siemens CCas from this seller, I urge you to apply caution and not to spend too much.
I would not bid too much if I were buying tubes from this seller.

Simens &Halske must have had some bored marketers basically if you look between 1968 you see wide letters 1969 you see letters that are closer together now since his pictures are taken at an angle and not close up its hard to tell but they look like they are 1969's
Like this one. Now being fair is their the possibility of fakes sure...I know that i have had atleat 8 different years of CCa's and most were different with the writing as I said someone was bored in marketing and decided to have the designers change the logo all the time
kinda funny... Gave someone a job back then.. One thing we never figured out for sure was what exact year each tube is their are some examples on www.tubeworld.com just type in Siemens CCa in the search field he has several different designs from the years..
On this one I dont know if this guy just is in real good with contacts or if their is a scam.. Not it's awful hard to scam the internal structure I wish I had this year CCa I would message him and ask him to take a closer pic...
 

 

[weitn]

After burned in my NOS Amperex Bugleboy rare large halo getter (made in Holland) which I ordered from audiotubes.com for more than 100 hours, the tubes open up and sounds better than before. Compared to GE 6BZ7, it has wider soundstage, more depth, extended bass and extended treble (without iritating hissing), very smooth SQ, bass is more punchy and solid and richer mid. Overall, the SQ is much more enjoyable than 6BZ7. With the Amperex, I don't have to turn the volume as loud as when using 6BZ7. With the 6BZ7 because the mid are slightly recess, I have to crank up the volume to 11 o'clock to hear more mid, which is not good (loud volume) for the ear in the long term. With the Amperex, the SQ already sound good when I turn on Lyr. Thus, I don't have to wait for Lyr to fully warm up. Meaning that there is less waste of tubes life waiting for amp to warm up. These tubes definitely have taken my listening pleasure to a higher level. For now, I am gonna stick with these tubes. My next upgrade will be the headphone cable for my HD650 which I have decided on Toxic Cables.

 

[Carlsan]

I emailed Musculitohifi and he responded:
 
 
Quote:

Hello, my English is not very good but will try to answer it to you, there
are many myths about cca Siemens, and many people that have had a few tubes
already experts believe, but the reality is another.
  1) Not all tubes
are manufactured by Siemens with the # code, it all depends in which the year
was made ?? these tubes and some tubes are manufactured by Siemens that do
not have any code.
2) Not all logos are easy to remove, there are tubes
that were printed with resistant paint and some not,
3) If the boxes are
new or tubes are new as it depends on the tubes were stored or if the tubes
They were exposed in a long electrical device in a factory or in a wet
basement.
Many of the tubes I sell are of a NATO, there is no single CCa
tubes or ECC83 but many others do not serve for music and these tubes I do
not sell them because they have no profit.
An interesting question is that
many people do not know or believe and that is not all tubes are
manufactured by Telefunken have diamond between the pins, I have EL84,
EF806S, ECC85, EF86 made by telefunque, original codes that proves so and
most important is the internal construncion Telefunken, but do not have the
<> diamond between pins.
Although I have many years dedicated to the
tubes, do not consider myself an expert and there is always something new
to learn.
But in this case for me the most important is that you're
satisfied with the business, if you're not sure or the sound of cca does
not satisfy you, you can return the tubes and naturally  I will return your
money. Regards Besinger

-musculitohifi

 

[Lord Soth]

Quote:

Simens &Halske must have had some bored marketers basically if you look between 1968 you see wide letters 1969 you see letters that are closer together now since his pictures are taken at an angle and not close up its hard to tell but they look like they are 1969's
Like this one. Now being fair is their the possibility of fakes sure...I know that i have had atleat 8 different years of CCa's and most were different with the writing as I said someone was bored in marketing and decided to have the designers change the logo all the time
kinda funny... Gave someone a job back then.. One thing we never figured out for sure was what exact year each tube is their are some examples on www.tubeworld.com just type in Siemens CCa in the search field he has several different designs from the years..
On this one I dont know if this guy just is in real good with contacts or if their is a scam.. Not it's awful hard to scam the internal structure I wish I had this year CCa I would message him and ask him to take a closer pic...
 

 
If you look at all the pictures of Siemens CCas at Tubeworld, https://www.tubeworld.com/6922.htm#ccasiemens
Yes, the above picture included, all varieties of CCas have spacing for the 3 letters. When I mean spacing, I mean that the letters should not touch one another.
 
However, if you look at the NOS Siemens CCas sold by musculitohifi,
Just select any NOS siemens CCas from his feedback.
 
you can see
 

 
that the "CCa" letters are all stuck together! They are touching one another without any spacing at all.
 
I will let other people draw their conclusions.
 
But I invite everyone to ask themselves this 1 question,
 
If all the various (as can be seen by Tubeworld's CCas over different eras) Siemens CCas ever produced have spacing in between each letter, why does this particular Ebay seller have a special breed of "CCa" without any spacing?

 

[Lord Soth]

Quote:

I emailed Musculitohifi and he responded:
 
Quote:

Hello, my English is not very good but will try to answer it to you, there
are many myths about cca Siemens, and many people that have had a few tubes
already experts believe, but the reality is another.
1) Not all tubes
are manufactured by Siemens with the # code, it all depends in which the year
was made ?? these tubes and some tubes are manufactured by Siemens that do
not have any code.
2) Not all logos are easy to remove, there are tubes
that were printed with resistant paint and some not,
3) If the boxes are
new or tubes are new as it depends on the tubes were stored or if the tubes
They were exposed in a long electrical device in a factory or in a wet
basement.
Many of the tubes I sell are of a NATO, there is no single CCa
tubes or ECC83 but many others do not serve for music and these tubes I do
not sell them because they have no profit.
An interesting question is that
many people do not know or believe and that is not all tubes are
manufactured by Telefunken have diamond between the pins, I have EL84,
EF806S, ECC85, EF86 made by telefunque, original codes that proves so and
most important is the internal construncion Telefunken, but do not have the
<> diamond between pins.
Although I have many years dedicated to the
tubes, do not consider myself an expert and there is always something new
to learn.
But in this case for me the most important is that you're
satisfied with the business, if you're not sure or the sound of cca does
not satisfy you, you can return the tubes and naturally I will return your
money. Regards Besinger

-musculitohifi

 
 

1. As I mentioned before, I happen to own samples of different varieties of the entire range of Siemens Halske tubes (PCC88, ECC88, E88CC , CCa, E188CC, E288CC) and even non Siemens labelled e.g. RCA tubes. All of them without fail, if they are made by Siemens Halske, they have the =/= etching on the glass. This etching cannot be removed. Yes, I use 99% alcohol to clean my tubes, especially the really old NOS yucky ones.
Not even alcohol can remove the =/= etching.
For some unexplained reason, the Siemens CCas I bought from this musculitohifi does not have the =/= etching.
Anyone else (besides this musculitohifi of course) out there who has the opposite experience?
 
2. Another sign of fake tubes produced by Chinese factories is the use of persistent paint. Real NOS tubes have a paint (normally white) which has turned chalky due to age. They are also easily removed.
For all the NOS tubes (not just including Siemens) I own, I have never come across any exception to this.
 
 
 
3. My other Siemens Halske (Blue and Yellow box) are aged yellow on the inside. Paper or cardboard will turn into this colour due to age.
However, this particular seller's boxes are pure white on the inside flaps.
The only way to achieve this is to store your entire tube boxes in a humidity controlled environment for over 5 to 6 decades.
We have to ask, for a seller who has endless supplies of Siemens, Valvo and Telefunken CCas, is this likely?
 
The strange thing about this Ebay seller is that the internal structures all check out fine.
As in his Siemens CCas have the gold pins, top ridges, crease on the getter holder and number at the bottom....etc.
 
So this seller is either
 
(a) selling a "special" breed of genuine CCas which do not have the above features, which makes him the only one in the entire world  
 
or
 
(b) selling CCas which are mass produced by some master forger in some Chinese factory out there. We just happen to have caught them out with a couple of discrepancies.
 
As before, I invite others to draw their own conclusions about this matter.

 

[Misterrogers]

On the same topic, my anonymous 'tube wizard' friend has this to say...
 
"FYI, The Siemens in the picture above definitely have fake labels. Siemens and Halske Logo and text is too regular and out of proportion for old style printing and atypical of modern screen print job. Tubes are genuine Siemens E88CC relabeled to increase value. Good chance the tubes are pulls from equipment, washed and relabeled."
 
I trust him. He's seen thousands of tubes.
[size=medium]  [/size]
[size=medium] [/size]

 

[dailydoseofdaly]

Thank you,mystery tube wizard.

Lol the more I think about that sentence the funnier it becomes.

 

[Locknar]

Hello Misterrogers,
 
I have a question for the 'Tube Wizard'. I just received (from eBay) 5 Brimar ECC88 tubes that have a Foreign BVA stamp. They all have the duel getter support with the flying saucer getter typical of the Russian Mil. Spec. 6N1P and 6N23P. I've been searching the web to find examples of this but have found nothing. Oh great Tube Wizard, are these fakes?
 
Thanks for your time.
 

J

 

[Misterrogers]

The Tube Wizard has blessed you with a response:
 
"Your guess is right. Russian tubes with fake Brimar label. STC/Brimar tubes have etched codes on glass"
 

Quote:

Hello Misterrogers,
 
I have a question for the 'Tube Wizard'. I just received (from eBay) 5 Brimar ECC88 tubes that have a Foreign BVA stamp. They all have the duel getter support with the flying saucer getter typical of the Russian Mil. Spec. 6N1P and 6N23P. I've been searching the web to find examples of this but have found nothing. Oh great Tube Wizard, are these fakes?
 
Thanks for your time.
 

J

 

 

[dailydoseofdaly]

The Tube Wizard has blessed you with a response:

"Your guess is right. Russian tubes with fake Brimar label. STC/Brimar tubes have etched codes on glass"

:wink_face:

I'm going to laugh my butt off when tube wizard turns out to be mr. rogers alter ego

 

[Misterrogers]

Ha! wouldn't that be funny! All I can honestly say, is that to the best of my knowledge - other people see the Tube Wizard too 

 

[Oskari]

Quote:

The Tube Wizard has blessed you with a response:
 
"Your guess is right. Russian tubes with fake Brimar label. STC/Brimar tubes have etched codes on glass"

 
I think there is a fair chance that the label is legit. It does say "foreign" after all. Stranger things could have happened.