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There's Something About Ultrasone… - Page 275

post #4111 of 5935
Quote:
Originally Posted by Contrastique View Post
Wauw, that's new to me...
Anyways, I hope you will like the 750's. They are truly amazingly lovely but I would prefer the ed9 over them any time.
I'm not saying they're better, just relating the story. YMMV

On one hand though, IF there are significant cosmetic upgrades to the Ed 9 (and of course there are...SIGNIFICANT ones), it might be reasonable to expect those creature comforts to add to the placebo effect...even beyond the knowledge of the huge jump in price.

...but I digress.
post #4112 of 5935
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dexdexter View Post
Not just yet, Indra. Perhaps you can test-drive it tomorrow if it's ready.
It's ready all right. Been burning in on the Vidar since Friday when I finished it .

Same withe the HP's, although I doubt if that has been 'time enough' for them?
Listened briefly this morning when picking up some stuff but I was not quite convinced they were loosening up .

See you tomorrow Indra.

I will turn up the airco's when I get in, it was awfully hot today.



Hans.
post #4113 of 5935
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bootleg View Post
...He then said he had a buddy who was an engineer type at Ultrasone's office on the East Coast somewhere and that he would call the guy and get his take on the 750 vs Ed 9.

A few hours later, my friend calls back and says that after some initial jockeying, the Ultrasone rep kinda "came clean" and stated that 90% of the difference between the two cans is "cosmetic stuff for audiophiles". He also mentioned that the 2500's are his personal favorite (even beyond that of the Ed 9's) because they have flatter frequency response.
To my knowledge, Ultrasone USA does not maintain an office on the East Coast. They do utilize an independent marketing firm by the name of Mojo Working which is based in NYC.

So not knowing who this "engineer type" person is kinda makes it difficult to ascribe any significance to his claim that the Edition 9s are mainly cosmetic fodder for audiophiles. Just handling them, one after the other, and examining the respective interiors of the Edition 9s and the PROlines leave no doubt in my mind that they are vastly different from virtually every design and materials standpoint, save for the drivers themselves. And listening to them only serves to reinforce those differences.

But, no matter. That 90% figure has been speculated about elsewhere before. So, just for the sake of argument, let's say that it's so. Then it's really down to each individual what that other 10% means to them.

For me, as the owner of PROlines 750, 2500, and Edition 9, that 10% is mighty substantial, and speaks to me largely in terms of refinement and overall involvement.

That said, the 750s are a great set of cans and I'm sure you'll enjoy them, they've provided my with hundreds of wonderful hours of listening pleasure.

But I also hope that one day you'll have the opportunity to spend some more quality time with the Edition 9s, so you can have a more intimate understanding of what the fuss is about!
post #4114 of 5935
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hoosterw View Post
Same withe the HP's, although I doubt if that has been 'time enough' for them?
Listened briefly this morning when picking up some stuff but I was not quite convinced they were loosening up .
Hang in there, Hans, they really do take an awfully long time to come on song!
post #4115 of 5935
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dexdexter View Post
Hang in there, Hans, they really do take an awfully long time to come on song!
Oh, I know they will! Only hoped they were a bit more loose when Indra came tomorrow.

When they are not, I will not have here listen to them and put them in a closed locker .

Hans.
post #4116 of 5935
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bootleg View Post
The funny thing is that the only pair of Ultrasone's I have heard so far are 4N6's Ed 9's. I absolutely loved them.

Based upon that listening session, I asked my audio dealer buddy to order me a pair of Ed. 9's.

He then went into his Stevie Wonder story and he and I argued a little bit about the merits of the 750's vs the Ed 9's.

He then said he had a buddy who was an engineer type at Ultrasone's office on the East Coast somewhere and that he would call the guy and get his take on the 750 vs Ed 9.

A few hours later, my friend calls back and says that after some initial jockeying, the Ultrasone rep kinda "came clean" and stated that 90% of the difference between the two cans is "cosmetic stuff for audiophiles". He also mentioned that the 2500's are his personal favorite (even beyond that of the Ed 9's) because they have flatter frequency response.

After hearing this, I decided to give the 750's a try, and possibly the 2500's at a later date (At $400 vs $1500 he didn't have to twist my arm that hard). I opted for the 750's because I strongly prefer the isolation advantages of closed vs open...so long as SQ is approaching similar levels.

I'll have the opportunity to compare them directly to 4N6's Ed 9's in a couple weeks.
It makes little difference to me that you get the 750s (which I owned and loved) of the Edition 9s (which I own and love much more). What does bother me is the implication that myself and a whole bunch of other are dupes who are fooling ourselves with placebo effect. It's just not true. I've had a number of other things where if I was going to "placebo" myself, my more expensive gear (owned) would have come out much better than some lesser expensive gear (also owned) I A/Bed with. Also I get concerned that other who lurk and monitor might be falsely swayed by the implications and speculations of your comments.

I don't know the depth of your relationship with your audio dealer "friend." It sounds like some inaccurate information (not necessarily deliberate) has come out so far from you or him regarding the supposed Ultrasone office in New York that doesn't seem to exist if Dex (who has a lot of info on all things Ultrasone) is accurate. But if you are interested I have a simply test that you can do to see if availability of the Edition 9s has had anything to do with the way you were influenced. PM me and I'll tell you how to do this "test."

Engineers are not necessarily into the appreciation of high end audio, so it's not like that is an iron-clad endorsenment one way or the other. I would want to find out how much listening for enjoyment the engineer (assuming he/she exists) does. What I can tell you from my experience is that the whole percentage analogy just doesn't hold up. If that were the case I could very happily say that the Edition 9s are 98% (or more) of the R-10s. And that may be true. IMO & experience there is magic in that 2%. For some of us that magic can be enough to make us want to spend some big bucks.

I have had the Koss KSC75 (and currently own the KSC35), an approx $20 headphone. By your profile you have Porta Pros that I suspect might be similar to the KSC 75s. By my estimation the KSC75 is probably close to 85-90% of the 750s or of say your 701s in raw overall sound quality (whatever that is). Why would you pay approx 20X ($20 vs $400) as much for the 750 or 701s? For me, the answer is that I can hear the difference and it's worth the added expense to me. And is the difference you can hear (assuming this is the case) between the Porta Pro and your 701s due to placebo?

There is no way in the world (IMO) that the Edition 9s (list $1500/ street $1140) is 4X better overall sound quality (whatever that is) than the 750 (list $400/ street $260). But in terms of my subjective experience the Edition 9s are more than 4X better. Knowing what I know now, and having aquired the taste for the more refinded sound quality of top tier headphones (I include the Edition 9 and the balanced Senn 650s in this group), I would probably pay $2500, maybe up to $3K for the Edition 9s--as long a I had the money.
And if the Edition 9s didn't exist, I'd probably be looking to spend that kind of money on the Grado PS-1s or the L-3000.

What I've come to realize is that even if 2 headphones share the same driver there can be sound quality differences. I have proof of this for me in my Senn 580s that I did the 600 mods on. Maybe it is in spec matching of the drivers, or that higher performing drivers are selected out of a batch (I'm told that computer chips do this to obtain their different grades) or the quality of other materials used (besides the Ethopian sheep leather, which I assumed was a comfort tweak). One thing for sure is that the internal wiring is different. Whatever the technical differences, and I don't really care as long as the bottom line is there, there is a very significant difference in sound quality with the Edition 9s.

I hope that once you get your 750s (fine as they are) you will compare them side by side with the Edition9s. And then come back here and report your findings. You've implied some things publically in your posts here and I hope that you are a big enough person top "eat your words" publically if your experience proves them false.
post #4117 of 5935
^the 750 vs UE9 will be found to be two completely different beast. It is great that he is a skeptic and will do this comparison...please the faster he hears the difference the better for all of us. Unless he is completely deaf! I just looked at Bootleg's profile, he will find them much closer to his RS-1 than anything else he has.

We both know we have nothing to fear in this comparison. I had the 2500s and loved them. Now the UE9s and have never looked back.
post #4118 of 5935
ldj: thats exactly what the Ultrasone Rep is talking about...the fidelity differences between 2 headphones of different tiers are not that great... I have no personal experience with Proline 2500 or Edition 9, but if I were to take for example Stax SR-404 and SR-001, the detail extraction is almost identical, the general Stax tonality is present in both, both are extremely fast. Oh, hell, the main difference to me between them is their sound signature, where SR-001 is darker, more midrange oriented, and does not extend in the bass quite as much... The differences we start talking about with high-end headphones for the most part is tonality, coloration, and preference...listen to Stax SR-404 and SR-4070 (same driver, different chassis, the latter is a monitoring headphone). Someone preferring Proline 2500 to the theoretically superior Edition 9 makes sense, and I only see Edition 9 owners being ultra-defensive about Edition 9 quality. I hope to be able to audition both headphones back to back, but I suspect the entire difference is in how their EQed, where the bigger one does something to strengthen the treble, making details far more apparent (which is exactly how K340 works for example).

Note again, I wish I had personal experience with both headphones...but I am also one of those people who prefers headphones which are good for monitoring...
post #4119 of 5935
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaloS View Post
ldj: thats exactly what the Ultrasone Rep is talking about...the fidelity differences between 2 headphones of different tiers are not that great... I have no personal experience with Proline 2500 or Edition 9, but if I were to take for example Stax SR-404 and SR-001, the detail extraction is almost identical, the general Stax tonality is present in both, both are extremely fast. Oh, hell, the main difference to me between them is their sound signature, where SR-001 is darker, more midrange oriented, and does not extend in the bass quite as much... The differences we start talking about with high-end headphones for the most part is tonality, coloration, and preference...listen to Stax SR-404 and SR-4070 (same driver, different chassis, the latter is a monitoring headphone). Someone preferring Proline 2500 to the theoretically superior Edition 9 makes sense, and I only see Edition 9 owners being ultra-defensive about Edition 9 quality. I hope to be able to audition both headphones back to back, but I suspect the entire difference is in how their EQed, where the bigger one does something to strengthen the treble, making details far more apparent (which is exactly how K340 works for example).

Note again, I wish I had personal experience with both headphones...but I am also one of those people who prefers headphones which are good for monitoring...

I don't get it. Why do some folks (this is generally towards a group and goes beyond Ultrasones) speculate when you have never heard the headphones (/amps/whatever)? It's all this stuff that gets made up in the air with little or no basis in "reality". It is that that bugs me, not some insecurity about the Edition 9s sound quality. I've seen this type of speculation in other threads with other gear, and it has always concerned me. But a lot of times I didn't feel qualified to comment as I hadn't heard that gear. This type of speculation based upon little or no fact did impact me personally once, and it made me aware of how fragile a reputation can be. Someone, based upon next to no information, began speculating on the built quality of a line of gear. I happened to be in a negociation process with a buyer for a piece of that gear (I was the seller). I was selling to upgrade rather than due to some issue. Let say that the unfounded speculation didn't help the sale. But I have lots of experience with 750s and Edition 9s so I feel very qualified to comment. Some have had the Edition 9s (or 750/2500 etc) and just haven't liked them. To me that is fine as we all have our personal preferences. But at least it is based on some listening experience, rather than an "idea" or a concept of how it should be.
post #4120 of 5935
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ldj325 View Post
I don't know the depth of your relationship with your audio dealer "friend." It sounds like some inaccurate information (not necessarily deliberate) has come out so far from you or him regarding the supposed Ultrasone office in New York that doesn't seem to exist if Dex (who has a lot of info on all things Ultrasone) is accurate.
Heh-heh, Laurence, I certainly don't have any kind of privileged information here; anyone can view the Ultrasone USA contact roster right on their website.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaloS View Post
ldj: thats exactly what the Ultrasone Rep is talking about...the fidelity differences between 2 headphones of different tiers are not that great... I have no personal experience with Proline 2500 or Edition 9...
Again, Stas, the details behind this "Rep" remain sketchy at best.

I think it's great that these headphones seem to generate such passionate interest, and everyone takes their own path. I entirely understand the skepticism surrounding the Edition 9s and I think it's healthy; as a passionate proponent of the PROlines myself, I was quite skeptical about the 9s until I finally had the opportunity to live with them. And my positive experience with the 2500s & 750s only makes me appreciate what they are capable of even more.

But if it makes some folks feel better to chalk it up to placebo effect and characterize Edition 9 owners as defensive, then so be it. I'll still be enjoying mine regardless.
post #4121 of 5935
"Defensive" is an interesting concept in this instance. People who don't have the phones make comments about what they are. I have them in my hands, and I don't see what they're talking about. Who's "defensive" and who's full of . . . whatever?
post #4122 of 5935
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dexdexter View Post
To my knowledge, Ultrasone USA does not maintain an office on the East Coast.
I believe that Evan (themick) of Ultrasone USA is based out of the Nashville area, or somewhere thereabouts.
post #4123 of 5935
havent read all of the posts yet, but i'll get to em.

Kindly remember that I LOVED the Ed 9's and was ready to buy them until my buddy talked me out of them. Since I had never heard the 750's I thought I'd give it a try just for kicks.

As to the story I related, allow me to clarify. I am now not 100% sure that my buddy said "east coast"...I think he may have said "back east".

The point is that I am in Hawaii, and as such the business day in the eastern us is often ending while its still morning here. My buddy had to make the call to catch the dude before he went home.

LOL!

Geesh!

Didn't know this stuff was going to go under the microscope like Law and Order!

I will have time enough to compare both cans...we have a mini-meet coming up at 4N6's house in a couple weeks and the 750's and Ed 9's will both see serious and critical listening time.
post #4124 of 5935
One final thought...If the Ed 9 ends up being markedly superior to the 750's...or even just mildly so, I'm sure I'll be joining you cats soon.

I've got a home equity line of credit and i AM NOT afraid to use it!
post #4125 of 5935
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpelg View Post
I believe that Evan (themick) of Ultrasone USA is based out of the Nashville area, or somewhere thereabouts.
Franklin, Tn if I remember correctly just south of Nashville. I grew up in that general area.
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