Had my Creek all of one week and can honestly say the headphone output from my audiolab 8000A amp does much the same job.

Time to get under the bonnet to see what was going on: After removing the screws and pulling out the PCB I had to go and get a beer to calm my nerves when I saw the cheap components that were attached to the board!

The largest capacitor was a "Samwha" 35v 2200uF and the rest were a mixture of "Nichicon" and "panasonic" caps.

After doing a bit of research here is the price list (UK) for the capacitors and pot.. the prices will obviously be cheaper for the manufacturer as they buy in bulk.

Samwha 35v 2200uF £0.11
Nichicon 35v 220uF £0.01
Nichicon 50v 47uF £0.03
Nichicon 25v 220uF £0.01
Panasonic 63v 47uF £0.09 (for 3 of them)
Alps Potentiometer £0.39
All resistors £0.25

Total: £0.79 p

I've got to do a "ball park" on the other components, including the case and power supply and reckon on around £2.30 which gives Creek and the middleman £125 of profit to split between them.

I was "horrified" to see such crappy componentry inside such a well made little box and there is no need to employ such cheap stuff into a design. It's an example of cutting costs to the bone.

So you will be thinking the amp is going back to the shop?? No way!

I have ordered up some ELNA cerafine and Tonorex caps of the same values on the OBH 11 board and am going to replace the crappy caps with these which I am sure will make a HUGE difference to the sound. They cost me £23.00 for the 7 capacitors so they have got to be better than the 25 pence Creek stock capacitors.

I hope to get the caps installed by the end of the week and I'll give them a further week to form (burn in) and will then come back and report on the difference, if any, to the sound. If good I will upload the full parts list and photos to my website so other Creek owners can have a go at upgrading to better caps.

For those of you in a hurry here are the ELNA part numbers you'll need:

ROA - 35v221MP9
ROA - 50v470MP9
ROA - 25v221MP9
ROA - 63v470MP9 x 3
ROB - 35v222MK8

Dunno about you guys but I don't expect to find capacitors costing one penny inside a Hi-Fi product. If Marantz can afford to use ELNA silmic caps in their budget CD players then Creek can do likewise. The only real part of this amp that leans toward "quality" is the case.. the rest of the components belong in the dustbin as far as I'm concerned.

I'm sure this amp will shine though when the signal is going through quality caps
ROA

They probably get 2 caps for a penny from this company:

http://www.componentexchange.co.uk/page5.html

Still shocked after looking under the bonnet!

PinkFloyd,

Why go to all the trouble of replacing those capacitors when you say that you get better sound with your AudioLab Amp?

But, I understand what you are saying about the cheap parts. The same capacitors you mentioned are also used inside the OBH-11SE which I have.

Hi Magic77

Good question! Simple answer is this: The audiolab lives downstairs in a dedicated "listening room" and is rarely used for headphone listening.

I need a headphone amp upstairs, along with a seperate CD player so I can listen to Roger Waters when I am working on the computer.

I did, however, do a comparison of the Audiolabs headphone socket and the OBH 11 and the Audiolab was slightly better IMO.

I'll do Creeks job for them and replace the components with the quality stuff they reckon should be inside the amp (see seperate post) and will send them the bill ))

I think the new caps will do the trick and may even improve the THD and SNR a touch.. will let you know!

http://www4.head-fi.org/forums/showt...threadid=19669

My other post on Creeks misrepresentation of components

that sucks!!! remind me never to buy a creek product again

While you have the hood up - take a few pics for us!!

ok,
erix

In another thread we discussed how it can make marketing sense for manufacturers to shave a few dollars with cheap components.

But it is hard to see how shaving a few pennies from the final cost can make sense when even minimal improvements in performance are available!

Quote:



Damn I had the hood up yesterday and bolted it down again to hide the cheap Hardcore but just for you I'll go under the bonnet again and upload some of the evidence erix!

Give me about 30 minutes and I'll go take some pics and upload them.

Pinkie

PinkFloyd, you're not being realistic. A couple things:

- Nichicon electrolytic capacitors are considered very good for audio; not as good as Elna Cerafines or Black Gates, but they're definitely not bargain-basement.

- Panasonic capacitors are well respected in the DIY community around here. Many of the amp builders on this site use Panasonic caps in the under $150 amps that they build.

- The prices you quote are not realistic. You say that a Nichicon 35v 220uF costs £0.01? Give me a break. Here in the US, that same capacitor from Percy Audio costs $1.10. Even given the exchange rates, you are off by a factor of 100.

- This is a specialty audio component, so allowing for dealer markup, the wholesale price is probably close to $90. My estimate for the parts you describe is about $20. Add $5 for the metal case, and $20 for assembly. Creek is probably only making $45 in profit (if that) on each unit.

I'm actually fairly impressed by the quality of the components Creek used. Compare those with the components used in piece of Sony gear and you'll see what I mean. Also, Creek makes their products in the UK, not China, so their assembly and testing costs are much higher than Sony. Creek are not out there to rip you off.

This actually sounds like a rehash of the Grado RA-1 bashing a while back.

I think wodgy has cleared up a little bit of misrepresentation here.

BTW wodgy I do like that picture frame amp. Nice

Quote:



I did my best given the short Notice more pics to follow

pics have been compromised due to 25k limitations ((

I'm with Wodgy on this one, except that the Nichicon cap from Percy is most likely different from the one in the Creek. Nichicon makes a bunch of different caps of the same value, including an audiophile line that Percy sells.

I'd like to see even one good critical evaluation of the sound of different caps that are used in power supply filtering...if I've missed it, please someone send me the link. Sure, some people have spent a bunch of money on Cerafines or Black Gates, spent hours putting them in, and in declare that it sounds much better. Maybe it does, but this is not an objective analysis. The problem is most people don't have a second unit laying around that is unmodified so they can do an A/B comparison. If you are building something yourself, spending a little more money on components can make sense. A commercial product is something different.

By the way, if you don't think Nichicon caps are any good, don't buy the Sugden HeadMaster or the HeadRoom Max because thats what they use. The nerve of them!

Thanks for the pictures. They don't look bad at all -- e.g. they used precision metal film resistors throughout, rather than cheaper carbon ones. Looks good to me.