[raymondlin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PITTM i didnt say your opinion was wrong, we both know that i didnt so i have no idea why you would say that i did. i said that you saying things like, "theres no grey area" that you were ruining a good discussion by dealing only in absolutes. i didnt say your OPINION was wrong, i said that it was wrong that you tried to pass of your opinion as fact. also, i didnt say everything youve said is wrong, i just asked that you not try to display opinions as fact and try to limit peoples arguments as a result of your opinions. but if you want to make another post where you can enjoy making up statements i didnt make, have at it... rj

fair enough, it is my opinion. So what is yours? Just because it is open, it's fair game? Just because the other person won't ever know? so its ok?

 

[PSmith08]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PITTM thank you! that WAS constructive, good argument, well done. i jsut dont know that i agree with the "if unauthorized use of property is wrong in one case it is wrong in every case". i understand your point, but in situations where it does no harm to the user (like many wi-fi sharing situations) then i dont see a real problem with it. ideally we should all be sharing our internet connections anyways. but that is a completely different argument. rj

Victimless crimes are still crimes. However, look at it like this: you are depriving the service provider of their $24.95 a month and their $50 connection fee when you "share" an internet connection. You are depriving your unknowingly generous neighbor of $24.95 a month, because, when you use their internet, they are paying for you. In all probability, the service provider builds sharing into their fee structure, so you are - in effect - costing everyone money. Whether or not the victim sees the harm is somewhat immaterial, as there is a colorable case for harm here.

However, this comes down to a simple case of asking for permission. Knock on a door, and ask if you can use the connection. If they say no, try another door. Go to Panera Bread, buy some chicken noodle soup in a bread bowl, a lemonade, and a bag of potato chips, and use Panera Bread's wireless connection. Ideally, we would all share our internet, but, ideally, people would be polite enough to ask before logging on.

 

[raymondlin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BPRJam I don't understand the garden gate scenario as it applies to this case. This signal is being broadcast into public spaces without encryption. If I plant my garden in the middle of the public park, then it is the property of the visiting public, not mine. Any claim I wish to stake to the garden must be very explicit. In the case of wi-fi, I would expect that claim to be the ubiquitous security measures available when broadcasting a signal. BPRJam

The logic here is that it won't cost the broadband owner a penny as some people argue when they are stealing someone else's bandwidth. Same logic as using someone's garden for a picnic for example wont cost the land owner a penny (lets say the land owner does not know about it). Does it make it right ?

As for garden in the middle of a public park, we are all surrounded by state own land (public), like the roads around us, does that mean your house is a public property?

 

[PITTM]

Quote:

Originally Posted by raymondlin fair enough, it is my opinion. So what is yours? Just because it is open, it's fair game? Just because the other person won't ever know? so its ok?

no, my opinion is if it doesnt negatively affect anyone and may provide a convienance for the wireless user than it SHOULD be fair game. i agree it doesnt matter whether the other person knows, it matters if it affects the other person, and in most cases it doesnt. however, i understand people have some stigma that if i were to use their router it somehow would affect them, so i choose not to. however, if someone walked past my house with a laptop and checked their email or their favorite website on my router and went on their way i see no reason to complain because it doesnt affect me at all and is a convience for that person.

rj

 

[tyrion]

Stealing is stealing. Having said that, wifi will end up being ubiquitous to the point that unless you check to see what network your computer has automatically connected to you won't know whether you stealing. I live on a small street with about 10 homes. I am in the cul de sac with 3 other houses. There was a time that my computer would connect to my neighbors network before mine. I didn't know it for a few days. It drives me nuts that places like Starbucks, Borders, etc. charge for wifi. I guess I am unethical and a criminal because if I am out of town and need an internet connection, I use the first one I can find and connect to.

 

[raymondlin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PITTM no, my opinion is if it doesnt negatively affect anyone and may provide a convienance for the wireless user than it SHOULD be fair game. i agree it doesnt matter whether the other person knows, it matters if it affects the other person, and in most cases it doesnt. however, i understand people have some stigma that if i were to use their router it somehow would affect them, so i choose not to. however, if someone walked past my house with a laptop and checked their email or their favorite website on my router and went on their way i see no reason to complain because it doesnt affect me at all and is a convience for that person. rj

The problem here and the probabiliy is you won't know if you are effecting the other person, since taking the presumtion of it will never affect the other person is clearly wrong. Then the logical answer is that you cannot take that chance, as you might affecting the owner of the network.

 

[PITTM]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PSmith08 Victimless crimes are still crimes. However, look at it like this: you are depriving the service provider of their $24.95 a month and their $50 connection fee when you "share" an internet connection. You are depriving your unknowingly generous neighbor of $24.95 a month, because, when you use their internet, they are paying for you. In all probability, the service provider builds sharing into their fee structure, so you are - in effect - costing everyone money. Whether or not the victim sees the harm is somewhat immaterial, as there is a colorable case for harm here. However, this comes down to a simple case of asking for permission. Knock on a door, and ask if you can use the connection. If they say no, try another door. Go to Panera Bread, buy some chicken noodle soup in a bread bowl, a lemonade, and a bag of potato chips, and use Panera Bread's wireless connection. Ideally, we would all share our internet, but, ideally, people would be polite enough to ask before logging on.

im not talking about permanant use of your neighbors router. if i pay 25 bucks a month for unlimited internet service and my neighbor does as well, why does it matter whether i use their router or mine or someone down the street's?

rj

 

[PITTM]

Quote:

Originally Posted by raymondlin The problem here and the probabiliy is you won't know if you are effecting the other person, since taking the presumtion of it will never affect the other person is clearly wrong. Then the logical answer is that you cannot take that chance, as you might affecting the owner of the network.

there are no "pay as you go" internet services available in my town. why would i not use someone elses router if i already pay the same money for the same service but simply dont have the convience of being at home?

rj

 

[raymondlin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PITTM there are no "pay as you go" internet services available in my town. why would i not use someone elses router if i already pay the same money for the same service but simply dont have the convience of being at home? rj

Can i use yours? can my friends use yours? can the entire town use yorurs? we'll all just log in and check our emails. No more.

And like you said it's SOMEONE ELSE'S ROUTER.

 

[Zanth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyrion Stealing is stealing. Having said that, wifi will end up being ubiquitous to the point that unless you check to see what network your computer has automatically connected to you won't know whether you stealing. I live on a small street with about 10 homes. I am in the cul de sac with 3 other houses. There was a time that my computer would connect to my neighbors network before mine. I didn't know it for a few days. It drives me nuts that places like Starbucks, Borders, etc. charge for wifi. I guess I am unethical and a criminal because if I am out of town and need an internet connection, I use the first one I can find and connect to.

Well in some ways yes and some ways no. Corporations often advertize wifi as a drawing card, others charge for it. If it is merely a drawing card, then using it would be in my opinion fine. But if you were to latch onto Starbucks wifi without paying (which I don't know how this would work since I would highly expect them to password protect it if charging for it). then yes, that would be stealing.

 

[taylor]

I leave my wireless router open. (No, I'm not stupid, I set it up to isolate my wired network from the wireless one. Works beautifully. I had one of my hacker friends come over and he couldn't find my machines). If someone wants to use it, I don't care. Then when I am away from home and need to get a connection, I go on other peoples. Sharing is Caring, or so they say.

 

[tyrion]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zanth Well in some ways yes and some ways no. Corporations often advertise wifi as a drawing card, others charge for it. If it is merely a drawing card, then using it would be in my opinion fine. But if you were to latch onto Starbucks wifi without paying (which I don't know how this would work since I would highly expect them to password protect it if charging for it). then yes, that would be stealing.

So you understand and in the event I wasn't clear, I think it is stealing. Have I done it, yes, I admit it. Do I care if my neighbor uses my wifi, not at all. I've offered it to a couple of neighbors before they had there own dsl service.

Starbucks has a right to charge for it I just don't get it. Fort Lauderdale Airport has free wifi in every terminal. Philadelphia and others charge. I stayed in a Disney Resort and if you wanted to use the wifi in the lobby there was one charge and if you wanted to use it in your room there was another charge. I go to a Marriott and there is wifi free in lobby and in most of their hotel rooms. I will probably never stay in that Disney resort again but will return to Marriott hotels. The cost involved in offering wifi can't be that much to justify a $10 charge for 24 hours of use (typical charge that I have seen).

 

[PITTM]

Quote:

Originally Posted by taylor I leave my wireless router open. (No, I'm not stupid, I set it up to isolate my wired network from the wireless one. Works beautifully. I had one of my hacker friends come over and he couldn't find my machines). If someone wants to use it, I don't care. Then when I am away from home and need to get a connection, I go on other peoples. Sharing is Caring, or so they say.

oh man, someone doing something nice? youre insane!! since many of the posters in this thread have TOLD US that using a wireless network is equal to sleeping in someone elses house can i come spend the month sleeping in your living room? (note: im not serious, this was only said to point out how outrageous the analogies many of the posters in this thread have been using actually are).

rj

 

[PSmith08]

I believe I've made my point on the immorality (or, being generous, negative amorality) of "borrowing" wireless access.

Let me say this again: just ask to use the connection. Explain that your connection is down for whatever reason. Most people will probably say "Yeah, whatever." Offer something in return. Offer to get them a 2 liter of soda, a pack of cigarettes, a Charleston Chew, or anything (reasonably cheap) for their kindness. Such behavior is not only social, it is extraordinarily considerate.

Who knows, you might make a new friend. Hooray!

 

[tyrion]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PSmith08 I believe I've made my point on the immorality (or, being generous, negative amorality) of "borrowing" wireless access. Let me say this again: just ask to use the connection. Explain that your connection is down for whatever reason. Most people will probably say "Yeah, whatever." Offer something in return. Offer to get them a 2 liter of soda, a pack of cigarettes, a Charleston Chew, or anything (reasonably cheap) for their kindness. Such behavior is not only social, it is extraordinarily considerate. Who knows, you might make a new friend. Hooray!

Never! Wifi must be free to the masses. Soylent Green is people...... Sorry, I got a little carried away.