Your opinions on "stealing" wi-fi internet
Jul 7, 2005 at 10:50 PM Post #121 of 134
Quote:

Originally Posted by jefemeister

It's a little disturbing in my opinion that this can be classifed as felony "unauthorized access to a computer network." How can you be unauthorized when the network does not implement authorization?

Thoughts?



Is it a felony to enter your house, eat your food, watch TV, etc. without permission if you forgot to lock your front door?

Sure it's pretty stupid to leave your front door unlocked, but does that void your rights (well, maybe except insurance)?

-Ed
 
Jul 7, 2005 at 10:53 PM Post #122 of 134
Quote:

Originally Posted by taylor
I leave my wireless router open. (No, I'm not stupid, I set it up to isolate my wired network from the wireless one. Works beautifully. I had one of my hacker friends come over and he couldn't find my machines). If someone wants to use it, I don't care. Then when I am away from home and need to get a connection, I go on other peoples. Sharing is Caring, or so they say.


You know, I would be fine with sharing if it weren't for that fact that you can get in trouble with your ISP for what other people do. (surfing for child pr*n and illegal file sharing.) If that happens, guess who gets in trouble first?

Well, that and I'm selfish. I pay nearly $60/month for my broadband access. So, yeah, I want all my bandwidth possible for gaming and uh....video streaming.
tongue.gif


-Ed
 
Jul 7, 2005 at 10:59 PM Post #123 of 134
if i hear accessing someones wireless router compared to breaking into someones house (or someone sleeping in your living room, yeah, i know, theyre totally the same right?) again my head is going to explode. does anyone actually think that those two things are the least bit similar? just because you COULD use the term trespassing to describe both situations doesnt make them the same...please please please no more outrageous analogies, seriously, it really takes away your credibility for making an argument when you compare two things that couldnt have any less to do with each other. its just a way of oversimplifying to make us believe that a complex issue is actually a very simple one that can be summed up in some unrelated analogy when it really cannot.

rj
 
Jul 7, 2005 at 11:04 PM Post #124 of 134
Quote:

Originally Posted by Edwood
Well, that and I'm selfish. I pay nearly $60/month for my broadband access. So, yeah, I want all my bandwidth possible for gaming and uh....video streaming.
tongue.gif


-Ed



I pay around 120€/month for mine. Yep, Luxembourg is a bitch with broadband issues. The fastest flat we get is 3mbit/192...if someone were to steal some of mine (which is impossible as I don't use wifi
tongue.gif
) I wouldn't have much left for myself. I also live on a splitten line.
 
Jul 7, 2005 at 11:20 PM Post #125 of 134
Ok not analogy here a real situation that possible in the US.

Let say your a not very savy and leave your internet open.

Plus by not being savy you happen to chose Satelite ISP Like DirecWay for USA


Check their plan for home broadband

I would like to point you some special feature of this ISP
Quote:

Download Threshold (b) = 169MB

b – Download Threshold is the volume of data that can be downloaded continuously before the Fair Access Policy throttles download speed. Several variables affect this number including: speed of download, duration of download, and the Plan’s Recovery Rate.


Then I would further point out that the client has paid
Quote:

Up-Front Purchase Plan (includes equipment and standard installation)
Purchase Price $599.98
Service Fee $59.99/month
Term Commitment 15 months
Hardware Warranty (e) 15 months

Promotional Plan (includes equipment and standard installation)
Activation Fee $99.99
Service Fee $99.99/month
Term Commitment 15 months
Hardware Warranty 30 months


Ok that may be not the best ISP to choose
biggrin.gif
[I found it after 1min googleling by thinking about this tread
biggrin.gif
]

But in summary I paid $600 for the satelite and either $60 or $99 If I chose the promotion (No idea what kind of ratass promotion it is) and have Download Threshold (b) = 169MB I would be piss off if the whole neigborhood who hasn't paid a dime all go check their email and browsing on my connection. Because if one can do it why not 10-20 people in the park just in front of my house
 
Jul 7, 2005 at 11:21 PM Post #126 of 134
Quote:

Originally Posted by PITTM
..........its just a way of oversimplifying to make us believe that a complex issue is actually a very simple one that can be summed up in some unrelated analogy when it really cannot.

rj



I think the only people that are trying to make this a complex issue are those that since the signals are in the air they belong to everyone. You and everyone else knows that it is not alright to pluck HBO's signal from a satellite and use it without paying. As I pointed out earlier the so called "free" TV and radio are not yours to do with as you please. You have been given the authority to receive them but that is all. For instance you may not receive and rebroadcast. The argument that it is OK to use a WI FI signal because it does not have a means to grant and control authorizations also does not hold water. If the owner has not given you permission you are not authorized to use it plain and simple.

If you or anyone does not think it should be a felony you are free to take action to have the law changed. Sure you probably will never get caught and it really may not be that serious an offense but that does not make it right.
 
Jul 7, 2005 at 11:36 PM Post #127 of 134
Lets think of it like this, if you do get caught using my wifi connection, and we'll both go to court. It is entirely possible.

Do you think the reasoning below will get you off? It's the few i've read so far in this thread.

Because they are asking for it !
Because they are too stupid to lock it down !
Because my Net connection was down and his was right there.
Because it is harmless. - (i have to point out that the word harmless is very subjective and how can you tell the other guy doesn't need every byte on his connection?)
Because he won't notice.
Because he won't miss it.
Because my computer logged on it automatically.
Because it's free.

You think these are legit defences in court?
 
Jul 7, 2005 at 11:39 PM Post #128 of 134
Quote:

Originally Posted by john_jcb
I think the only people that are trying to make this a complex issue are those that since the signals are in the air they belong to everyone. You and everyone else knows that it is not alright to pluck HBO's signal from a satellite and use it without paying. As I pointed out earlier the so called "free" TV and radio are not yours to do with as you please. You have been given the authority to receive them but that is all. For instance you may not receive and rebroadcast. The argument that it is OK to use a WI FI signal because it does not have a means to grant and control authorizations also does not hold water. If the owner has not given you permission you are not authorized to use it plain and simple.

If you or anyone does not think it should be a felony you are free to take action to have the law changed. Sure you probably will never get caught and it really may not be that serious an offense but that does not make it right.



i didnt say that at all. i dont steal wifi signals because my system is wired only and i have no need to do so. my argument was that if you use someones router to check your email you are not doing harm to anyone and are gaining some utility it shouldnt really be any big deal, especially not on the level of murdering someones family or whatever the next analogy will be. sure i understand its illegal, but i dont get why someone would care unless they had a pay as you go type of service. but yeah, i get that its illegal. i also get that breaking into someones house and using their wireless network are two very different things.

rj
 
Jul 7, 2005 at 11:41 PM Post #129 of 134
PITTM,
I think analogies are useful because they use the same premises as the original event. In ethics you always have certain premises and be they in a certain hierarchy or proportionality. In everyday life people often rely on standard operating procedures which are derived from their ethical and moral premises and their constant exertion until they become SOPs, especially in situation when you don't have much time to think in order to seize the "opportunity".

When temporarily "borrowing" bandwidth is ok, why not "borrow" somebody else's money without permission? This example wouldn't be as farfetched as sleeping in a stranger's house, especially if it's just a buck or two... Somebody who's willing to go the first step is much more likely to go the second step, too, if he's being consistent. There's nothing wrong with being consistent but one might need to rethink the premises then. Unless I am completely mistaken, besides the different proportions, I don't see the distinct difference between borrowing somebody's money and borrowing his bandwidth without specific permission. Both money and bandwidth are means to certain ends that needs to be determined by the wielder. The point is not whether you think it might matter or not, the point is that every person has rights that need to be respected and you have no right to decide whether the other person may take use of his right or not; that's the point of having them to begin with.

Of course, it's not entirely black and white with moral standards and in some cases, a set of standards might have to be weighed against others or has to make room for a "greater good", which is to be argued, but even so I don't see the greater good in checking my emails using somebody else's bandwidth - unless somebody's life depended on it. There are no other moral obligations that would provide me with incentives to use his bandwidth either. Even if it was for the greater good, it'd still be a crime from a legal point of view, no matter how you look at it.

So propotionality might matter but it doesn't matter how grave a crime is (although it certainly matters for the degree of punishment); it only needs to break a certain law or somebody's personal rights as in this case to justify as crime. So is there a difference between using someone else's bandwidth and sleeping in somebody's else house? Certainly yes! Perhaps the Wifi owner doesn't mind and I'll happily chat with him about how to set up a protection barrier for his Wifi - but it's a crime nonetheless.

Of course, this doesn't even take into the consideration the Wifi provider's point of view as Born2bwire pointed out.
 
Jul 7, 2005 at 11:46 PM Post #130 of 134
Quote:

Originally Posted by raymondlin
Lets think of it like this, if you do get caught using my wifi connection, and we'll both go to court. It is entirely possible.

Do you think the reasoning below will get you off? It's the few i've read so far in this thread.

Because they are asking for it !
Because they are too stupid to lock it down !
Because my Net connection was down and his was right there.
Because it is harmless. - (i have to point out that the word harmless is very subjective and how can you tell the other guy doesn't need every byte on his connection?)
Because he won't notice.
Because he won't miss it.
Because my computer logged on it automatically.
Because it's free.

You think these are legit defences in court?



did you actually think ive been arguing that it is actually legal somehow this whole time? i really hope not, because i never once said that in this entire thread. i just said it shouldnt be a big deal like everyone makes it out to be. as i said at the start of the thread, if i had a wireless router and someone came and sat on my front lawn, checked their email and then left i wouldnt care at all. why? because there is no reason for me to care! thats it...

rj
 
Jul 7, 2005 at 11:52 PM Post #131 of 134
Quote:

Originally Posted by PITTM
did you actually think ive been arguing that it is actually legal somehow this whole time? i really hope not, because i never once said that in this entire thread. i just said it shouldnt be a big deal like everyone makes it out to be. as i said at the start of the thread, if i had a wireless router and someone came and sat on my front lawn, checked their email and then left i wouldnt care at all. why? because there is no reason for me to care! thats it...

rj



I would mind, it is the princinple of it. At university, i don't mind people using my stuff in my cupboard at all as long as they ask. Even have some of my food is fine, as long as they ask. But take it and think i won't miss it, they'll have another thing coming. It is the principle of it, even if it's some bread, if they had ask, they can take the whole loaf for all i care, just leave me 2 slices for toast in the morning. If they don't ask, a little butter would be more than just butter, it would be theft.
 
Jul 7, 2005 at 11:59 PM Post #132 of 134
Quote:

Originally Posted by raymondlin
I would mind, it is the princinple of it. At university, i don't mind people using my stuff in my cupboard at all as long as they ask. Even have some of my food is fine, as long as they ask. But take it and think i won't miss it, they'll have another thing coming. It is the principle of it, even if it's some bread, if they had ask, they can take the whole loaf for all i care, just leave me 2 slices for toast in the morning. If they don't ask, a little butter would be more than just butter, it would be theft.


again, your food being taken results in you having less food. so in your analogy you would have less internet if someone used your router. this isnt really the case, hence two different situations.

rj
 
Jul 8, 2005 at 12:03 AM Post #133 of 134
Quote:

Originally Posted by PITTM
again, your food being taken results in you having less food. so in your analogy you would have less internet if someone used your router. this isnt really the case, hence two different situations.

rj



forget about the example, its the PRINCIPLE !!!!!!!!! ASK -> yes answer = Fine, Don't Ask = Not ok. That clear enough?

You might be fine about letting the odd person using your internet, not everyone is like that. And you cannot presume everyone IS like that, therefore you can't go around using other people's internet jsut because you think its ok, and you think they won't miss it.

Why ? because not everyone thinks like you. ie. me.
 
Jul 8, 2005 at 12:07 AM Post #134 of 134
and with that lap around this circular argument, I'm locking the thread.

I think this one has just about run its course.
 

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