[Crowbar]

A triode is a more linear gain device than a transistor, so this is not a counterargument to anything I've written. I use tubes and I'm glad they're available. Not to mention that the tube's 3/2 power law nonlinearity is masked by the ear's own distortion more than the transistor's exponential nonlinearity (I've in quite a number of places on this forum said that metrics should be weighted for perceptual significance, which can be measured with blind testing). Of course, topology is in the end more important than whether the specific devices within it are tubes or transistors, so a general comparison of SS with tube based equipment is pointless and idiotic--it's like comparing the performance of all diesel engines versus all gasoline engines--variation within the group far exceeds average variation between the two groups.

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different brains and may thus prefer different sounds

The problem with that is that if the amplifier or DAC distorts, such distortion is not controllable. If the equipment has no audible distortion, then you can with a DSP or filter adjust to any possible distortion one may like for whatever it is listening material you feel like adding coloration to.

 

[Eagleboy]

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Originally Posted by Crowbar /img/forum/go_quote.gif If a piece of equipment that produces an order of magnitude more distortion sounds better to you, then you like the sound of distortion and not the sound of a live performance--that means you either have bad taste or tin ears.

First off, you're talking about minute amounts of distortion. Point is, does it really matter that much at that point? Your choice of headphone is probably going to distort many magnitudes more than your choice of amplifier (everyone has a preference for headphones - some like the "Sennheiser tone", others the "Grado tone". Tone variation like this = distortion, and no headphone or speaker setup is 100% perfect. If it was, we'd all own it and nothing else).

Secondly, live performances are not without distortion, either. The sound engineer could be a total screw up. Mic placement isn't always optimal and could cause a sound wave cancellation of the snare drum or something to that effect. The guitar amp could be past it's due in terms of replacing the tubes.

Or, even if there is no amplification, you have to deal with room dynamics. How many people in the audience affects the sound. Usually a band will do a sound check in an empty stadium - when the stadium gets filled up, there is hundreds of tons of sound absorbing material added called people, and that affects sound as well.



Nit-picking about distortion in an amplifier isn't going to get you anywhere, unless it was a particularly bad example of an amplifier and distortion was exceedingly present. As someone else said, just listen to the music and if it sounds good to you then great. Even if you have a bias towards liking something because you just dropped $300 on it, then you still like it. "Nail in the coffin" this is not. Simply proves your dependence on "science" to tell you what you like. A 100% distortion free amplifier will not give you a perfect rendition of that Kiss concert - far too many other variables. Even if you want that "live" sound, your experience will vary based on your seating. You're chasing the impossible.

 

[Faust2D]

This is a nice read on the subject of non OS DAC:http://www.sakurasystems.com/articles/Kusunoki.html

 

[fordgtlover]

Crowbar

It seems like you're a smart person and have some interesting views, but I'm not sure the "I'm right and if you disagree with me you're a fool" approach is working very well.

There are already too many "if you can't prove it, it can't exist" arguments in the audio world. I echo other comments here, if you like it, listen to it and let others do the same with their choices.

[humour]If the world was so black and white we would all listen to AKG K701 headphones and all other headphones would be redundant.[/humour]

Your point is being lost in your approach.

My 2 cents.

 

[Crowbar]

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Originally Posted by Faust2D /img/forum/go_quote.gif This is a nice read on the subject of non OS DAC:http://www.sakurasystems.com/articles/Kusunoki.html

The author criticizes oversampling because poor oversampling filters are used, and because he argues that the ear is a sufficient low pass filter. The first argument fails because though this is the case in many implementations, it is not universal--you can't blame a method if a manufacturer does a poor job of implementing it. The second fails because HF noise modulates device parameters and causes slew-related distortion in analog stages subsequent to the DAC. As to the note on pulse response--that shows ignorance of basic physiology. The ear works in the frequency domain! It's flat passband frequency response and linear phase that is optimal in that context.

 

[Crowbar]

Now watch me hit two birds with one stone.

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Originally Posted by Eagleboy /img/forum/go_quote.gif Your choice of headphone is probably going to distort many magnitudes more than your choice of amplifier

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Originally Posted by fordgtlover /img/forum/go_quote.gif [humour]If the world was so black and white we would all listen to AKG K701 headphones and all other headphones would be redundant.[/humour]

Here are headphones that an order of magnitude flatter response than the rest, and from ab initio calculations the distortion would also be orders of magnitude lower.

Best of all, you can easily build clones of these. I built one driver last year and now I'm switching to an even better technology.
More info on the originals: http://membres.lycos.fr/plasmapropul...lasmasonic.htm

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Originally Posted by Eagleboy /img/forum/go_quote.gif Secondly, live performances are not without distortion, either.

I go to acoustical classical and jazz concerts all the time and I assure you there's no electronics to introduce distortion.

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Or, even if there is no amplification, you have to deal with room dynamics.

But that's not distortion! It's the acoustic environment and as it should be, is an integral part of the sound. There's no relation between the effects from that on sound, and the distortion of sound playback equipment.

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A 100% distortion free amplifier will not give you a perfect rendition of that Kiss concert - far too many other variables.

Yes, and I've already mentioned making it a point to choose very high quality recordings. But you must understand that different points in the signal chain introduce different types of distortions, that may or many not mask each other. Small amounts of amplifier distortion will still be audible through the low order even harmonics of typical speakers and headphones. Jitter and class AB/B crossover distortion, and some other distortions, are audible in the parts per million and you'll hear jitter even when playing back through a tube amp with a couple of percent 2nd harmonic. Issues about thermal memory distortion appear to also be significant. And so on.

 

[fordgtlover]

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Originally Posted by Crowbar /img/forum/go_quote.gif Now watch me hit two birds with one stone. snip

What are you talking about? No. Don't bother responding to this message.

Your dogma is already on the loose.

 

[Eagleboy]

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Originally Posted by Crowbar /img/forum/go_quote.gif I go to acoustical classical and jazz concerts all the time and I assure you there's no electronics to introduce distortion. ... ... But that's not distortion! It's the acoustic environment and as it should be, is an integral part of the sound. There's no relation between the effects from that on sound, and the distortion of sound playback equipment.

Distortion = alteration. The moment you introduce a surface for a waveform to reflect off of, you alter it. You distort it. Unless you're listening to your favorite musician in a floorless, walless plane of existence at ATM, you are distorting the original waveform. A recording will sound different from a performance at Carnegie hall, which will sound different from a performance at Radio City. And yes, that is measurable.
Also mind you, that an instrument itself can distort. Have you ever heard an overdriven acoustic guitar top? It's ridiculous! But that is an "integral part of the sound", no? So, wouldn't it be natural to take a certain amount of distortion as an integral part of listening to reproductions? There's no way to escape distortion in reproduction listening, so it is a natural occurrence.

You're not there with the recording engineer seeing his selection of microphones, mic placements, counting how many times a track clips, etc, so DO NOT tell me that you chose accurate recordings. It might sound good, but it might not be accurate.


By the way, nice inclusion of a meaningless bad scan of a graph that we can't read. Either way, the Frequency Response of those isn't 100% flat, so therefore it distorts and you should throw those cans away - since you're all about perfection and zero distortion.



I think somebody should sit back and listen to the music - not the frequencies. I listen to MP3s out of an Audigy 4 into a Millet Hybrid amp, through a number of lowish-end headphones. And you know what? The *music* sounds fantastic. Try it some time. Even bad recordings can sound good if you listen to the music, and not the recording. You sound like some kind of audio evangelist.

 

[Crowbar]

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Originally Posted by Eagleboy /img/forum/go_quote.gif Distortion = alteration.

No, the environment is part of the instrumentation that forms the sound. The guitar's wooden body alters the sound produced by the vibrating strings. But the sound of the guitar is that of the whole thing, not the string. The environment is just another lair, and the way physical objects affect sound is something natural to the ear, incomparable to the distortions you get from electronic equipment.

 

[dizzyorange]

Gotta go with Eagleboy on this one.

 

[Faust2D]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crowbar /img/forum/go_quote.gif As to the note on pulse response--that shows ignorance of basic physiology. The ear works in the frequency domain! It's flat passband frequency response and linear phase that is optimal in that context.

What? Please be more coherent with your answers.

 

[Crowbar]

Human ear works in the frequency domain: cilia are binned by frequency response, and what is sent to the brain is a Fourier transform of the sound.

 

[Faust2D]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crowbar /img/forum/go_quote.gif No, the environment is part of the instrumentation that forms the sound. The guitar's wooden body alters the sound produced by the vibrating strings. But the sound of the guitar is that of the whole thing, not the string. The environment is just another lair, and the way physical objects affect sound is something natural to the ear, incomparable to the distortions you get from electronic equipment.

Dude, you are not making a convincing argument misspelling everything.

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A lair is a place that animals use to hide themselves, while at sleep, hibernation or when they take part in reproduction. Some lair-using animals build their lairs, others use hollows which occur naturally, like caves.

 

[Roam]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crowbar /img/forum/go_quote.gif The author criticizes oversampling because poor oversampling filters are used, and because he argues that the ear is a sufficient low pass filter. The first argument fails because though this is the case in many implementations, it is not universal--you can't blame a method if a manufacturer does a poor job of implementing it. The second fails because HF noise modulates device parameters and causes slew-related distortion in analog stages subsequent to the DAC.

The second point is very important here, with few exceptions, the analog stages of CD players and DACs are too slow by at least an order of magnitude. The situation is made even worse by a filterless DAC as the raw outputs will have a noise spectra which extends well into the MHz range, and which does not fade into the noise floor until well into the tens of MHz. The Op-amp chips found the analog sections of DACs can't handle this, most of those chips top out at maybe 20V/us, slewing distortion is guaranteed as they were never meant to handle MHz range signals.

NOS DACs do have one advantage though, they use the old style R2R DAC chips such as the PCM1702 which in my opinion do a much better job of D/A conversion than the delta-sigma chips found in almost every digital device these days. That I believe is why some people like them despite the rest of their faults.

 

[Faust2D]

If you you use a carefully designed DAC tube output stage you do not have any of the problem described above. Op-amp chips are a bad way to go, IMHO.