Yes, objectivists do confirm their decisions by listening...

Oct 9, 2022 at 6:49 PM Post #106 of 112
Dunning and Kruger approves this thread. Here it goes anyway last and last post

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That’s funny! You could do another one, moron on the left, genius on the right, then put Einstein on the left and D. Trump on the right. It would be just as accurate at yours!
The famous "just enough knowledge to be dangerous" is what comes to mind here.
Think you’re getting a step ahead there Castle, “not enough knowledge to be anything other than ridiculous” is the step we’ve yet to get past! :)

G
 
Oct 9, 2022 at 7:01 PM Post #107 of 112
From my own journey through all of this, I do find there are a lot of aspects of sounds that are not yet quantified or well understood.

How much of an attempt have you made to find an answer to your questions? Did you spend time researching and testing to find out the answer? Did you approach the research with an attitude of intellectual honesty and the humility necessary to learn from people who know things you don't know? That last question is the one that eliminates most of the people who come into sound science and argue with us.

I think science always has a generational problem, where new knowledge only really takes hold when the old guard dies off. If audiophile claims turn out to be true, it will probably take a few decades at least to override the previous consensus.

That's the root of a lot of problems with audiophiles. A whole bunch of baggage has been carried over from the analog era. People worry about "veils' and analog noise that flat out doesn't exist in digital. There is absolutely no reason any more to worry about the sound of a digital interconnect, amp or DAC. But people still do. And if you ask them what they are hearing, they will describe it in ways that digital just can't cause. This comes from a basic misunderstanding of how digital audio works, and there's no excuse for being ignorant about that. The answers are a simple google search away. You just have to have to make the effort with intellectual honesty and humility.
 
Oct 9, 2022 at 7:05 PM Post #108 of 112
No bad THD+N measurements can sound either good or bad. THD+N Measurements do not correlate to perceived listening experiences I’ve mentioned it many times. Until I’m thoroughly convinced that there is a direct measurement metric (aside from FR or phase or CSD plots etc) that also supports the biases that I have with subjective preferences that exist in audio science, I’ll remain a skeptic that audio science has covered every aspect of sound quality and hi fidelity in general
The problem is, as others have said in one way or another, that you are confusing subjective impressions with objective realities. What may sound pleasing to you may not sound as pleasing to others. Apart from having different preferences, subjectivity can be transient and vary with beliefs, mood and so on. Objective measurements such as 'basic FR, directivity, phase, power, L/C/R response or damping factor' can only tell us how faithful the signal is being recorded, distributed or reproduced (and with most gear the measurements have proven to be transparent over the past few decades). Transparency will sound good for most people with good recordings/masterings but we all have preferences for say a bit more bass or treble or so on, but to design gear around one individual's transient preferences is not rational way of doing things, rather the end user can tweak the sound to however he or she likes.
 
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Oct 9, 2022 at 7:24 PM Post #109 of 112
That’s funny! You could do another one, moron on the left, genius on the right, then put Einstein on the left and D. Trump on the right. It would be just as accurate at yours!

D Trump is an idiot though. He should be on the top left. Einstein and Hawking on the right

The problem is, as others have said in one way or another, that you are confusing subjective impressions with objective realities. What may sound pleasing to you may not sound as pleasing to others. Apart from having different preferences, subjectivity can be transient and vary with beliefs, mood and so on. Objective measurements such as 'basic FR, directivity, phase, power, L/C/R response or damping factor' can only tell us how faithful the signal is being recorded, distributed or reproduced (and with most gear the measurements have proven to be transparent over the past few decades). Transparency will sound good for most people with good recordings/masterings but we all have preferences for say a bit more bass or treble or so on, but to design gear around one individual's transient preferences is not rational way of doing things, rather the end user can tweak the sound to however he or she likes.

A perfect reasonable response that I truly agree
 
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Oct 9, 2022 at 7:29 PM Post #110 of 112
Oct 10, 2022 at 3:57 AM Post #111 of 112
Did you approach the research with an attitude of intellectual honesty and the humility necessary to learn from people who know things you don't know?
To be fair, I think most audiophiles do exactly that. The problem is, that the “people who know things you don’t” are the companies/marketers trying to scam audiophiles, reviewers reliant on advertising revenue from those companies and other audiophiles steeped in all that marketing BS. From an audiophile’s point of view, aren’t you going to turn to those who must know because they actually make/design audiophile products, say Rob Watts, Paul McGowan or Sony, those with long respected careers reviewing audiophile products, like John Atkinson or John Darko, or are you going to turn to some anonymous guys in a dark corner of Head-fi? If you don’t already have a pretty decent understanding of audio, intellectual honesty and critical thinking would clearly indicate the former over the latter.
This comes from a basic misunderstanding of how digital audio works, and there's no excuse for being ignorant about that.
To be fair again, there is a very good excuse for being ignorant about how digital audio works. With barely more than a couple of exceptions, pretty much all the audiophile manufacturers and reviewers routinely misrepresent how digital audio works and have done for decades.
I do find there are a lot of aspects of sounds that are not yet quantified or well understood.
That goes back to what I said above, what is it that you “do find”? Within the audiophile community, what you do find is largely marketing BS or opinions/observations based on it. Even if you’re very skeptical, it’s near impossible not to be influenced by it to some degree. One of the oldest, most common and most effective audiophile marketing tactics is to deliberately confuse audio properties/performance with the subjective perceptions/preferences/opinions of those who listen to them. Your assertion above is a good example of this. The actual fact is that there are no “aspects of sounds that are not yet quantified or well understood” and this was proven over 70 years ago. However, there are quite a lot of aspects of how individuals perceive sounds that are not yet quantified or fully understood.
I think science always has a generational problem, where new knowledge only really takes hold when the old guard dies off.
This again has its roots in audiophile marketing. What you assert is true in some branches of science, where we might partly have to rely on “working hypotheses” because the reliable evidence does not yet exist, theoretical physics, medicine and psychoacoustics for example. This isn’t the case with audio science though, we’re not dealing with assumptions or “working hypotheses”, we’re dealing with well established laws of physics and proven/demonstrated scientific theories/theorems. Arguably, there has been no new scientific knowledge in this field since the late 1980’s but even that dealt with edge cases on or below the threshold of human hearing and it “took hold” in the early 1990s. There has of course be advances in technology (the application of the science) since then and in the field of psychoacoustics.
If audiophile claims turn out to be true, it will probably take a few decades at least to override the previous consensus.
Again, unlike medicine, psychoacoustics and some other branches of science, audio science is not based on consensus, it’s based on proven/demonstrated laws and theorems. So, for audiophile claims to be true, you’d have to “override” say Ohms law or the Nyquist/Shannon Theorem but how’s that possible? If Ohms law were wrong, none of our power grids or electrical devices would work, if the Nyquist/Shannon theorem were wrong, none of our digital devices would work. Of course it depends on exactly which audiophile claims we’re talking about but a surprisingly high number fall into this category of “just not possible”.
D Trump is an idiot though. He should be on the top left. Einstein and Hawking on the right
Exactly, I was following your example of putting it backwards! With all fairness, Rob Watts probably isn’t a moron but it’s a bit difficult to tell because he makes quite a lot of moronic assertions. It’s very possible he does know what he’s talking about but makes moronic assertions for marketing purposes because his target demographic will swallow it.

G
 
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Oct 10, 2022 at 4:01 AM Post #112 of 112
Yeah, “consider the source” should certainly be applied. Add healthy skepticism to the list of attributes I mentioned.
 

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