[blackbird]

Today, I had an hour of free time(10pm today

), so I decided to grab a few songs from my Gigabeat to examine in audicity using my windows pc. I'm not that good at identifying which ones are brickwalled, but some of them are simply apparent. How exactly do you identify clipping in audicity? I don't really know how to do it. All of the files are FLAC, and from the original mastered cd unless noted.

Anyway, I made screenshots of the waveforms, and so I'm going to discuss my (albeit, interesting and surprising findings). I did not know that some were brickwalled, and others that I thought sounded great were actually brickwalled. Just goes to show that you can't tell by listening.

Test 1: 3 Goo Goo Dolls

1: Goo Goo Dolls: Broadway(Dizzy Up the Girl)
2. Goo Goo Dolls: Feel the Silence (Let Love In)
3. Goo Goo Dolls: So Far Away (Superstar Car Wash)

There was nothing surprising about Broadway, because I knew it sounded decent. Feel the Silence, however, is VERY surprising, because when I listen to it, it seems like there is alot of clipping and digital artifacts, but the waveform doesn't actually look that bad. So Far Away is also very interesting, because it sounds amazing, but it looks very brickwalled for something released in 1993. Ironically, it seems that the waveform is more bricked than Broadway, which was released 5 years later. Correct me if I'm wrong, since i'm not that experienced in these things.

Test 2: 3 Bricks

1. Saosin:It's So Simple(Saosin)
2. Bloc Party:Luno (Silent Alarm)
3. InterpolDA(Turn on the Bright Lights)

I had the impression that Saosin's songs would be very brickwalled. Whenever I listened to their songs, it was simply so apparent that their songs were overly loud and obnixous. I should probably get around to deleting this album. It doesn't take a genius to tell that this one is bricked to the max. The other two were astonishing. Both Silent Alarm and Turn on the Bright Lights don't sound half bad. To tell you the truth, I actually think they sound great, with a clear absence of digital clipping when listening to it, and they don't sound overly loud. How Surprised I was to see that these albums are just as loud as Saosin. I mean, people are voting a brickwalled album(Turn on the Bright Lights) as one of the best of the 2000's? Thats just amazing.

Test 3: Not quite there.

1. Thom Yorke: And it Rained All Night (The Eraser)
2. Coldplay: Life In Technicolor (Viva La Vida and Death and His Friends)
3. Dire Straits: Money for Nothing (Brothers in Arms, remaster)

Never knew that Yorke's side project had a relatively low dynamic range. I mean, does his Radiohead stuff become this brickwalled? Coldplay's Viva La Vida is one of those black sheep, a relatively quiet album in a year where things like Death Magnetic are release. I'm impressed, Coldplay, Kudos. Brothers in Arms is pretty well done, considering its a remaster. I actually like the album, but I don't know if the remaster is brickwalled compared to the original. It sounds pretty good to me though. I should probably get the original sometime.

Test 4: All Gems

1. The Shins: Caring is Creepy (Oh, Inverted World)
2. Bon Iver: Lump Sum (For Emma, Forever Ago)
3. The Shins: Sealegs (Wincing the Night Away)
4. Dave Matthews Band: The Best of Whats around (Under the table and dreaming)

Expectedly, all of these 4 albums are mastered well, perhaps for the exception of Wincing the Night. However, through decent headphones, they all sound decent without any artifacts or clipping. I was very surprised with Under the Table and Dreaming, and For Emma Forever Ago. UTTAD because it seems a little compressed for a 90s song, and For Emma, for the fact that it is exceptionally quiet and has a wide dynamic range. Not only does the album sound great technically, but the music is fantastic! Can't wait for Iver's next album. More people should begin to copy Iver in this aspect. I wonder if he bothered touching the dynamic range at all.

(Can't believe that took me 25minutes to type)

 

[devin_mm]

That's interesting, I pulled a couple tracks from an album that's almost the complete opposite of brickwalled.

1. Moxy Früvous - Gulf War Song (Barginville)
2. Moxy Früvous - The Drinking Song (Barginville)

 

[krmathis]

Clear evidence of the horrible loudness game!

So many albums with potential out there, but which are unlistenable because they have no dynamic range or even clip horribly.

 

[paulb09]

Waveform is irrelevant on Viva La Vida; you only need to listen to hear the compression and distortion.

 

[blackbird]

Quote:

Originally Posted by paulb09 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Waveform is irrelevant on Viva La Vida; you only need to listen to hear the compression and distortion.

Could you point it out on the waveform though? That's the million dollar question.

 

[virometal]

It is really is amazing how much modern popular music is mastered poorly. There are plenty of methods available to crap out a mix that could escape visual examination. The producer can limit individual tracks before the final mix for example and god knows what other tricks they have. So the ears are the ultimate judge, but that does go very far in an internet forum.

I have become used to it but have been jarred back to reality whenever albums mastered as little as ten years ago, are played. My ears will take time to adjust, as older music will tend to sound plain, when in reality they're just absent all the lovely digital artifacts.

A Place to Bury Stranger claim to be the world's loudest band, and I'm inclined to agree. Here is a picture of It is Nothing off their latest:



If you're going to do it, might as well do it all the way!

 

[HipHopScribe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by virometal /img/forum/go_quote.gif It is really is amazing how much modern popular music is mastered poorly. There are plenty of methods available to crap out a mix that could escape visual examination. The producer can limit individual tracks before the final mix for example and god knows what other tricks they have. So the ears are the ultimate judge, but that does go very far in an internet forum. I have become used to it but have been jarred back to reality whenever albums mastered as little as ten years ago, are played. My ears will take time to adjust, as older music will tend to sound plain, when in reality they're just absent all the lovely digital artifacts. A Place to Bury Stranger claim to be the world's loudest band, and I'm inclined to agree. Here is a picture of It is Nothing off their latest: If you're going to do it, might as well do it all the way!

Times New Viking would probably like to have a word with them:

 

[Publius]

None of these plots identify clipping. You need to zoom in to the waveform itself rather than the peak info that these zoomed-out plots represent to see the degree of limiting/clipping that is going on. In some situations these plots may be indicative of substantial dynamic range....

 

[Matro5]

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackbird /img/forum/go_quote.gif I mean, people are voting a brickwalled album(Turn on the Bright Lights) as one of the best of the 2000's? Thats just amazing.

Why are you amazed by this? It's a fine album.

And it wasn't until you looked at the waveforms that you learned it was "loud"? This seems like a strange way to enjoy music to me. I'm trying to understand it.

 

[paulb09]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matro5 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Why are you amazed by this? It's a fine album. And it wasn't until you looked at the waveforms that you learned it was "loud"? This seems like a strange way to enjoy music to me. I'm trying to understand it.

I agree that just because an album is brick-walled should have nothing to do with whether the music is actually well thought out and has good artistic quality. Yet when you come to listen to the compressed and distorted mess, you lose some of the feeling that can be given by clean, real sounding instruments (in my opinion), which degrades what the music is trying to convey to some extent. As for pure loudness, some music intentionally has volume, and I don't believe this should be a problem on its own (whether dynamic range is essential for quality music is a whole different argument), but what you hear shouldn't have to be distorted unintentionally by poor mastering.

 

[Matro5]

Thanks for the reply, Paul. I do see what you're saying. But, the OP is not saying Turn on the Bright Lights is a distorted mess. From the 1st post: "Both Silent Alarm and Turn on the Bright Lights don't sound half bad. To tell you the truth, I actually think they sound great, with a clear absence of digital clipping when listening to it, and they don't sound overly loud."

But, then, post visual analysis, he is "amazed" that a "brickwalled album" would earn votes for best of the decade, even though he admittedly thinks it "sounds great."

Doesn't that seem odd? The conclusion I would draw from that would be exactly the opposite - I'm amazed that a brickwalled album could sound so good. And, then, by extension, I would conclude that looking at waveforms might an exercise in futility.

So, again, I don't see how this obsessive approach to music enhances enjoyment. In fact, just the opposite.

 

[Davey]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matro5 /img/forum/go_quote.gif So, again, I don't see how this obsessive approach to music enhances enjoyment. In fact, just the opposite.

Sure, if that's all there was to it. But those two records do sound terrible by any measure, waveform editor or not, and the more we ignore how far the recording industry has fallen in the last 15 years, the more we are doomed to stay here. I applaud people for posting waveforms, even if the conclusions are sometimes a little misguided, or the plots misjudged. There is no misjudging the difference between the waveform plots of most modern pop releases compared with 20 years ago. Looking at the waveforms can help educate people on what is happening to the music, and even lead to a greater appreciation of the complexities and nuances of music in general. The textures and colors that are lost when so much compression and limiting is applied. Can you imagine how great Silent Alarm could have been with a mastering more like Entertainment!, or Crazy Rhythms, or London Calling, or even something that isn't a great recording like Ocean Rain, or a host of other classics from that era.

Sometimes we do get a hint with the more sanely mastered vinyl release. I do have that first Interpol LP, and to be honest it sounds pretty bad too, adding a ton of groove noise and rumble (that wasn't a very good time for Matador vinyl here in the US), but some others are almost like a different album compared to the CD, and always more enjoyable.

 

[jilgiljongiljing]

I love looking at waveforms in audacity.

 

[moogoob]

Quote:

Originally Posted by devin_mm /img/forum/go_quote.gif That's interesting, I pulled a couple tracks from an album that's almost the complete opposite of brickwalled. ***Picture was here*** 1. Moxy Früvous - Gulf War Song (Barginville) 2. Moxy Früvous - The Drinking Song (Barginville)

Moxy Früvous!!!!!!

 

[Matro5]

Thanks for the reply, Davey. You've got great taste in music.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davey /img/forum/go_quote.gif Sure, if that's all there was to it. But those two records do sound terrible by any measure, waveform editor or not, and the more we ignore how far the recording industry has fallen in the last 15 years, the more we are doomed to stay here. I applaud people for posting waveforms, even if the conclusions are sometimes a little misguided, or the plots misjudged.

But, they didn't sound terrible to the OP until he looked at the waveform, though, they sounded "great with a clear absence of any digital clipping." So I can't agree with you on "terrible by any measure."

In any case, this isn't a question, to me, of "what can be done in the industry?" Unless you're in an influential position in the music industry, the answer to that is basically, "vote with your wallet."

This is just a hobby to me, and I suspect to most of us. So, my question remains, "does looking at waveforms make music more enjoyable?" Oddly, I think that even the people who like looking at waveforms would have to say "no." That's what I noticed re: the OP's experience in looking at the waveforms for Turn on the Bright Lights and why I posted in the thread.

Here's my thinking: if the argument is something like, "waveforms helps us better appreciate the music" then I could see some value in time spent there. But that's not what I'm reading in this thread. I'm seeing less appreciation for music. I'm reading a lot of posts pining for albums that never existed instead of appreciating the music on the ones that do.

In other words, there is ostensibly only one version of Turn on the Bright Lights. For the end user to helplessly dream about what it could have sounded like doesn't make the album that actually exists more enjoyable, it makes it less so.

So, why do it?