Backsplash7
100+ Head-Fier
The only variants that I am aware of for the ref 2, are a made-in-germany version and a made-in-ireland version. But I couldn't tell you if there's a sound difference there
Wow! Sennheiser HD 540 Reference are so good.
- Thread starter Hairspray
- Start date
I have just compared my 540 headphones with my massdrop 6xx headphones modded. The 540s seem to have a wider soundstage and are brighter. Very impressed with a set of cans this old.
Backsplash7
100+ Head-Fier
I changed my daily driver from HD600 to 540 II, and it changed my concept of what headphones could be
Makes you wonder. Has technology really moved on with headphones since the eighties.
Backsplash7
100+ Head-Fier
I'd say yes, but with lots of caveats and nuance. The breakthrough dynamic driver technology of the late 70's/early 80's was the thin plastic films used on the drivers; compared to the old paper drivers, they're nothing alike. But there hasn't been a new material thats come along thats been substantially lighter to replace that yet, or at least not suited for this purpose, or at least not a material thats affordable for the masses. I was born in the 80's and grew up listening to a very basic (and super uncomfortable) set of paper driver headphones with a stereo receiver, and that would've been the norm for many people at the time (for at-home listening at least, I guess there were cheaper earbuds for walkmans etc). I can't imagine it being super common to see an HD540 in someones home back then!
The 6XX is a variation-on-a-theme of the HD580, which was first released in 1993. Proof that things haven't moved on a great deal, yes... but then, you could also argue that at a price point, its certainly a design thats proven to be successful. That its managed to survive this long, could be for a good reason.
There are other driver types of course, though even most of these designs first appeared at least in the 60's and 70's. But electrostatic and ribbon driver headphones require very specific amplification, and its always been prohibitively expensive for most people. And though I've yet to try one, everything I've read about planar magnetic drivers seems to imply that their strengths and weaknesses pretty much boil down to being a tradeoff against the pro's and con's of a traditional dynamic driver, rather than being an outright "better" technology.
So, until some new revolutionary thing happens, you're kind of stuck tinkering around the edges trying to find small ways to eke out more efficiency in existing designs. Cost and physics being limiting factors.
But it'd also be unfair to say that nothing has gotten better at all since the 80's. If you were to try something that was actually designed from the ground up since the mid-2000's, or especially mid-teens onwards, you'd probably be pleasantly surprised... *budget depending*.
The biggest real caveat that occurs to me, is that lots of other things have happened since the 80's. Dac and amplifier designs, internal component quality, domestic mains noise, cables and plugs... your HD540 is capable of sounding better with todays equipment than it was when it first appeared, which means its a gift that can keep on giving. (The vintage gear lovers will be coming for my blood, so I'll just add that yes, some older equipment can sound nice, but you still get what I mean).
Bang for buck though, HD540 is a good gateway drug. For some, its the holy grail. For me, it was an important step on a path not yet ended.
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sennsay
1000+ Head-Fier
Fair comment. I sent my Massdrop 6xx back after only weeks with them, the soundstage was peaked in the centre and a certain lack of real Life and joy in the music that never really said, "Hey, check this out!" There was just no natural organic timbre and flow to music that could compete with the HD540's, that made me want to listen for hours and really enjoy the music. Disappointed, but then I also had the same result with a pair of genuine German made HD650's that cost me near $900NZ some years prior to that and I always went back to the HD540's then too, stock WITH the original cables at the time. Not that they were 'bad' cans, certainly not, they were just missing something that the Ref 1s had that kept drawing me in. Some folks swear by their HD650's. Each to their own. I did find, however, that the Massdrop 6xx had finer detail retrieval in the upper mids/lower treble (say, some guitar string detail), at the time! I get more out of the HD540s now than I ever did with my current system.
PS I agree with you, backsplash7, particularly the last couple of paragraphs, the HD540's upscale brilliantly with better electronics. I cannot say the same for the HE400S planars I have packed away, poorly built headband, peaky soundstage centrally (worse than the HD650's) and that sharp lower treble peak, ouch at times. In saying that, I did have the original HE400S and with their better A pads as well. They sounded surprisingly better through the mere Class A current drive output of the Questyle QP1R, relatively balanced, even if needing more power for some recordings. A slightly shiny lower treble peak on occasions, yes, but not highlighted as with other electronics.
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I am using a copper cable on my 540 headphones. I have the original cable. Is it worth me trying it out. I have always been a bit concerned because it looks fiddly to change them.
sennsay
1000+ Head-Fier
It ought to be a direct swap from one to another, the newer cables use round gold plated pins and the original cable has flat plated pins. If your new cable goes in the stock cable most certainly will, it was designed for them, remember. No issue. I made my own cable using Mogami #2894 quad core microphone cable and a connector with gold plated round pins. No problem other than a tiny amount of the pin housing needs shaving off the sides.
So sure, check out the stock cable and see what you find, but do give them a little time before swapping back and forth, they have a sig of their own that highlights the upper mids/lower treble a touch, you might like it. There is also a mild midrange grain with them ... or at least I found that to be so and still do. I used them for many years quite happily before the ''age of Mogami"
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I also switched from the HD580 and HD660 (which I also like very much) to the HD540II, which I listen to most of the time. When I want to relax and listen to music while concentrating on the process, it's always the HD540 headphones I want to listen to. They give me a slightly wider stereo scene compared to the HD660, slightly more shiny highs, and some kind of magical reproduction of various analog noises, echoes and small, subtle details in the recording. When I listen to records from a vinyl turntable, the crackling and groove noise in the HD540 seems to separate from the record and take their place in the stereo panorama slightly to the side of the record and interfere less. In the HD660, these noises sound as if in the middle of the recording and this effect is almost not distinct. No matter how the technology in headphones develops, I think that Sennheiser engineers have made a masterpiece and I hope that I will keep a few of my pairs, even if I find something better
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Backsplash7
100+ Head-Fier
Its far less common to see comments from people playing records with headphones (no idea why), so I'm curious whether you prefer solid state or tube amplification with headphones?I also switched from the HD580 and HD660 (which I also like very much) to the HD540II, which I listen to most of the time. When I want to relax and listen to music while concentrating on the process, it's always the HD540 headphones I want to listen to. They give me a slightly wider stereo scene compared to the HD660, slightly more shiny highs, and some kind of magical reproduction of various analog noises, echoes and small, subtle details in the recording. When I listen to records from a vinyl turntable, the crackling and groove noise in the HD540 seems to separate from the record and take their place in the stereo panorama slightly to the side of the record and interfere less. In the HD660, these noises sound as if in the middle of the recording and this effect is almost not distinct. No matter how the technology in headphones develops, I think that Sennheiser engineers have made a masterpiece and I hope that I will keep a few of my pairs, even if I find something better
Why is this so surprising to you?) I like all music on headphones, because when I listen to music from speakers, I have to sit right in front of the speakers to hear a balanced sound, and then I don't hear as much detail. I have a tube amplifier with soviet tubes, a copy of the Darkvoice 336 that my friend from Ukraine made for me. This amplifier adds a little bit of breadth to the stereo picture and softens the high frequencies, adding a little bit of low and mid frequencies. But most of the time I'm too lazy to plug it in and warm it up, and I like it when I can plug my headphones in anywhere and listen to them anywhere.
sennsay
1000+ Head-Fier
Good call there and yes, most of us don't use LPs much with the HD540's. I used to a LOT! Now that I've moved interstate and most of my gear is still stored away until I can afford the exorbitant fees to ship it here, I have no turntables (that actually run, I'm repairing a couple ... slowly) and I don't have my favourite preamp to listen to LPs on, the Perreaux SP100, which has a 250mW Class A headphone amplifier in-built. I rebuilt this whole preamp and now this 1979 really sings with LPs. I used the HD540's with it almost exclusively and I agree with all your points, big soundstage and the groove noise does indeed separate itself from the music. How I miss some of those LPs! A few months ago I built a Naim Clone phono stage kit, I have the 24V supply for it and it seems to run just fine .... I have no t/t to try it out. Yet. The SP100 was a very early model in Perreaux's history, when I wrote and asked them about it and if they could supply a circuit diagram (they kindly found a very simple layout that was useful), they were impressed to see one in such good condition and would have loved one like it for their museum. Yep, I have a museum pieceI also switched from the HD580 and HD660 (which I also like very much) to the HD540II, which I listen to most of the time. When I want to relax and listen to music while concentrating on the process, it's always the HD540 headphones I want to listen to. They give me a slightly wider stereo scene compared to the HD660, slightly more shiny highs, and some kind of magical reproduction of various analog noises, echoes and small, subtle details in the recording. When I listen to records from a vinyl turntable, the crackling and groove noise in the HD540 seems to separate from the record and take their place in the stereo panorama slightly to the side of the record and interfere less. In the HD660, these noises sound as if in the middle of the recording and this effect is almost not distinct. No matter how the technology in headphones develops, I think that Sennheiser engineers have made a masterpiece and I hope that I will keep a few of my pairs, even if I find something better
Did a quick and dirty setup for a proof of concept:
Pulled all opamps from the two Accu Clone boards and also from my Chinese R2R DAC.
Took some wires that fit nicely into the opamp sockets and connected all in in/out fashion.
Result is very good. Dynamic detailed spacious sound.
Now I got my on the road setup pretty much finished.
All is powered by the Jan Didden silent switcher that runs off a 5v power bank. It puts out positive and negative 15v for the Accu boards and 5V for the Dac itself.
Listened for about 2 hours with only using up 1 bar of four from my 10a/h power bank.
I used my phone with USBplayer pro in bit perfect mode.
Absolutely stunning without any expensive opamps involved.
Klaus
Pulled all opamps from the two Accu Clone boards and also from my Chinese R2R DAC.
Took some wires that fit nicely into the opamp sockets and connected all in in/out fashion.
Result is very good. Dynamic detailed spacious sound.
Now I got my on the road setup pretty much finished.
All is powered by the Jan Didden silent switcher that runs off a 5v power bank. It puts out positive and negative 15v for the Accu boards and 5V for the Dac itself.
Listened for about 2 hours with only using up 1 bar of four from my 10a/h power bank.
I used my phone with USBplayer pro in bit perfect mode.
Absolutely stunning without any expensive opamps involved.
Klaus
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sennsay
1000+ Head-Fier
That takes a bit of getting my head around. Ok, I understand 'proof of concept' to remove opamps from the circuit, but how are you using the AccuClone boards, balanced output? In series? I imagine you'd have very low power output, though probably just enough, and yet so many wire joins all over the place. As an experiment, good for you, now what? Yes, it's quite possible to use the DAC without any output opamps, I accidentally did that one day with Frankie, had some music playing and looked at the DAC and realised that I had no HDAM or Burson in there. It works, but I prefer Frankie with the V7V, much better overall control and dynamic range.Did a quick and dirty setup for a proof of concept:
Pulled all opamps from the two Accu Clone boards and also from my Chinese R2R DAC.
Took some wires that fit nicely into the opamp sockets and connected all in in/out fashion.
Result is very good. Dynamic detailed spacious sound.
Now I got my on the road setup pretty much finished.
All is powered by the Jan Didden silent switcher that runs off a 5v power bank. It puts out positive and negative 15v for the Accu boards and 5V for the Dac itself.
Listened for about 2 hours with only using up 1 bar of four from my 10a/h power bank.
I used my phone with USBplayer pro in bit perfect mode.
Absolutely stunning without any expensive opamps involved.
Klaus
In fact, the creator of Lampizator rated the AD1852 DAC chip in Frankie as one of the very best, up there with the finest from Arcam etc, AND you take the output from a capacitor bank straight to a valve, bypassing the SS output stage. I have the details but would rather have a second Zero DAC to do that and leave my Frankie alone. All the info for that is online. Of course, all that is not new and was done before all of his latest masterpieces. All out of my (current) league, financially.
I have been finding myself lately that I'm just enjoying listening to the AccuClone the First, with the LT1028's. Loving the simplicity, it's compact, extremely tuneful and has fine rhythmic abilities, and for that extraordinary top end transparency and sheer clarity, it's still even more openly extended in clear ambient space than the V7V. AccuClone II is terrific if I want more driving power rhythmically, and it is certainly a little warmer, but I find I'm pickier with it, whereas with the A/C the 1st, I can enjoy listening to anything, such a clear window into the music and any layers that may be there. I can hear qualities in music of all types that I've not heard before, or if I have then they are not as apparent. Images are slightly smaller, highly focused in space but don't have the scale and body of the V7V and most certainly the HDAMs. They have very slightly less image height, as in apparent depth below my chin, but excellent above it, great stereo separation and depth perception if it's recorded. Do I care about what little they don't do? No, I'm too busy enjoying the music. Not sure that I want to experiment any further at this time.
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It was a test to see if I get the same quality of sound without the expensive opamps.
I was surprised that the signal was so strong after removing 3 opamps in the chain.
It was louder than I ever care to listen to.
I could not detect a lack of bass slam or dynamics. Cascading the discreete portions of an excellent pre makes allot more sense to me than using any opamps in the signal.
Got 0.2 mv dc on the output but I will use caps on my active horn system to be on the safe side.
For my future endeavors this is a very important step. My tube stage is a no gain design so till now I had to use expensive V7V or the little better Sparkos SS2590 opamps.
Got the Lampizator parts for a volage out and a current out dac laying here since early last year but that R2R DAC with the Cary SLP 90 tube pre was so magical I was not in a hurry to fiddle with Lampizator designs.
BTW. The AD chips where not Lukasz best DIY Lampizator design.
His last and best before going commercial was with the Behringer Ultramatch which contains the AK4393 DAC.
This is the exact dac that's on the 3 outputs of my Behringer DCX crossover so I might try this next since the exact recipe is posted.
The Sparkos SS2590 had been my best of all attempts so far to get rid of normal opamps.
Now that might change due to the cheap Accuphase clone board with no input opamps.
Klaus
I was surprised that the signal was so strong after removing 3 opamps in the chain.
It was louder than I ever care to listen to.
I could not detect a lack of bass slam or dynamics. Cascading the discreete portions of an excellent pre makes allot more sense to me than using any opamps in the signal.
Got 0.2 mv dc on the output but I will use caps on my active horn system to be on the safe side.
For my future endeavors this is a very important step. My tube stage is a no gain design so till now I had to use expensive V7V or the little better Sparkos SS2590 opamps.
Got the Lampizator parts for a volage out and a current out dac laying here since early last year but that R2R DAC with the Cary SLP 90 tube pre was so magical I was not in a hurry to fiddle with Lampizator designs.
BTW. The AD chips where not Lukasz best DIY Lampizator design.
His last and best before going commercial was with the Behringer Ultramatch which contains the AK4393 DAC.
This is the exact dac that's on the 3 outputs of my Behringer DCX crossover so I might try this next since the exact recipe is posted.
The Sparkos SS2590 had been my best of all attempts so far to get rid of normal opamps.
Now that might change due to the cheap Accuphase clone board with no input opamps.
Klaus
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