[Shub-Niggurath]

Hello,
I haven't posted on these forums for a very long time but I'm kind of at a deadlock in my research for a sound card. I'm hoping someone can suggest me something!
 
Basically I have an Auzentech X-Fi Forte that's crapping out. It's doing the helicopter sound which those of you familiar with the card may have heard of (see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-m9p7KQFzTA for an example). It's out of warranty so I need to pay Auzentech to fix it. I'm not sure I feel like doing that because if it happens again later on, I'll have to go through the whole process all over again. I'm pretty pissed off and disappointed because the X-Fi Forte is pretty much the perfect card for me.
 
So I'm looking at replacing the card altogether.
 
I have Audio-Technica ATH-AD700 headphones which I use for everything, and admittedly crappy Logitech Z323 speakers which I only use to watch movies with my wife every now and then. They do the job fine for that purpose, so really I need a sound card to drive my headphones properly. I'm not an extremely demanding user, but I like good sound.
 
Also I am a PC gamer first and foremost, so I need a sound card that is good for games (positional cues, compatibility, etc.).
 
My budget is around $200 but I'll be more than happy to spend less!
 
I have some requirements but aim to be flexible in most aspects:
 
In no particular order:
1) PCI Express x1
I'm open to using the older PCI standard ut am concerned that PCI is an aging standard that's slowly going away, and I wouldn't want to replace the sound card if later on I changed my motherboard and couldn't find one with a PCI slot.
 
2) Integrated headphone amp
Not flexible on this requirement
 
3) Reliable with no known glaring issues -- see requirement #1; I'd like a card I can keep for the long haul (ideally).
 
4) Balanced sound -- well-defined but not overbearing bass, clear treble and mids.
 
5) If possible, I would like separate outputs for the headphones and the speakers. Failing that, I can use Y-splitter or connect the speakers to my front panel whenever I need them. Would appreciate advice on what the best approach is here.
 
6) Regular mic input. I realize just about every sound card has that, but I need it, so I'm pointing it out just in case I have the Zalman clip-on mic.
 
7) I'm trying to avoid Creative, but if based on the above the best option is a Creative or Creative-based card, I'll consider it.
 
8) Preferably not an external USB sound card (unless it delivers on all of the above).
 
I hope I'm not being too demanding -- don't hesitate to suggest anything that you feel would work for me.
 
Thanks!

 

[newtophones07]

Essence Stx or Clark halo plus

There are tons of threads already on both

 

[NamelessPFG]

Is there any particular reason you insist on an integrated, dedicated headphone amp? I'd rather have an external amp that could be used with all sorts of sources...but I am a Stax user, so it's not like any sound card amp is going to be useful to me anyway.
 
Then there's the gaming requirements...Creative hardware is still the best at that and I'm stuck with them, as much as I hate to say it. (Then again, I still play old games that use EAX.)
 
Sorry to hear about the X-Fi Forte woes...I didn't have that problem when I had mine, but it did seem to be a later revision less than a year old. (I don't have it anymore, though; traded it to someone who needed analog surround outputs for an X-Fi Titanium HD.)
 
As mentioned already, your best alternatives at this point are probably the Asus Xonar Essence STX and HT Omega Claro Halo+ if you refuse to consider the X-Fi Titanium HD at all.

 

[Shub-Niggurath]

Thanks. The Essence STX seems to crop up a lot in my research. I've looked at the X-Fi Titanium HD and it seems to have an issue that would greatly annoy me -- if you connect speakers and headphones at the same time, it disables the speaker output. I don't want to have to go under my desk to unplug my headphones every time I want to use my speakers Earlier today I was actually set on the X-Fi Titanium HD, until I read about that silly problem. If it's been fixed or if it's inaccurate, I'm open to it

 

[NamelessPFG]

Creative says it's a hardware design "feature" that can't simply be fixed with newer drivers. It doesn't bother me because all I need are the RCA outputs to feed a Stax amp. (I don't use speakers.) I don't understand why they did it when the Auzentech cards didn't and instead gave people the option.
 
Also, if you use a microphone, the Titanium HD lacks the usual mic boost feature. I have no idea why.
 
Still, these are things I can personally get over because the sound's so good, and at least for me, CMSS-3D Headphone is like having an aural wallhack. (I have no idea how well Dolby Headphone compares for gaming, at least not at this time.)

 

[PurpleAngel]

Asus Xonar DG, PCI, comes with a headphone amplifier rated up to 150-Ohms.
Comes with Dolby Digital (Dolby Headphones)
Can be as cheap as $17.60 after mail in rebate.
 
You could plug your speakers into the rear jacks and plug the headphones into the front headphone jack of your computer case,
if your computer case has front headphone jacks?

 

[Shub-Niggurath]

Yeah, I did read that Creative says they designed it that way. I was curious if that eventually got fixed by drivers anyway since Creative isn't extremely consistent with their stuff.
Since the quality of the headphone output (and the quality of the 3D positional stuff) is the most important aspect to me, do you figure the Titanium HD is the best investment? I won't mind connecting the speakers to my front panel whenever I need to use them.
As for the mic, I never use one for gaming, only for Skype. Think my Zalman clip-on would work fine for Skype with a Titanium HD?
 

 
Quote:

Asus Xonar DG, PCI, comes with a headphone amplifier rated up to 150-Ohms.
Comes with Dolby Digital (Dolby Headphones)
Can be as cheap as $17.60 after mail in rebate.
 
You could plug your speakers into the rear jacks and plug the headphones into the front headphone jack of your computer case,
if your computer case has front headphone jacks?

I'm open to it. My case does have front panel jacks. The thing is I was never sure if the front panel header on the sound card is also wired to the headphone amp. Also, I don't know, maybe it's silly of me, but I don't like having to unplug and replug stuff, only because it creates undue stress on the connector itself. The front panel jacks always feel a bit flimsy to me.

 

[NamelessPFG]

I sold my AD700 before I got the Titanium HD, so I can't comment on that headphone specifically, but the headphone-out sounds fine with the HTF600 and SS-20. Wouldn't expect any less with the AD700 (which doesn't benefit from a headphone amp anyway, in my experience).
 
Also, I overlooked that you would consider PCI cards, in which case the Xonar DG sounds like a nice budget option. Not particularly high-end, but for $30 up-front, it offers a lot of bang for the buck...however, I've never tried it. (I've only used the X-Fi Prelude, X-Fi Forte, and X-Fi Titanium HD...spot a pattern?)
 
As for front-panel jacks on computer cases, flimsiness is the least of my worries. When they introduce all sorts of noise that an AD700 will render irritatingly obvious, it's just unacceptable, especially when half the point of buying a sound card is to have cleaner analog output than what's integrated onto the motherboard.
 
Oh, and one more question about your Forte...did it have a heatsink on the EMU20k2 DSP itself? The one I had did, but it seems like the first batches didn't.
 
...Wait a minute. Of all the cards PurpleAngel mentioned, it WASN'T one of those new Sound Blaster Recon3D cards. Specs seem worse SNR-wise on paper than the Auzentech cards, the Titanium HD, the Xonar Essence STX, and the Claro Halo+, but maybe there's more to them than we think. Still, too many unknowns for me to make a solid recommendation for or against it...

 

[Shub-Niggurath]

You know what, thanks for reminding me about the Recon3D card. While I can't find any review on it, I do have confidence that it's a quality card, so I might just spring for it. It actually has all the features I'm looking for. Other than being Creative of course, but admittedly I've never had an issue with a Creative card other than the bloated software. I hadn't researched the Recon3D much, but I now see that it has a headphone amp, a dedicated headphone out along with a speaker out, and the fact that it's brand new technology gives me hope that Creative did everything right. Maybe I'm buying too much into the negative press they've been getting over the last years and I should trust my own experience with them. My first "sound card" was an AdLib, later I got a Logitech SoundMan (a rebadged Pro Audio Spectrum), and after that always got Creative cards (SB Live! 5.1, SB Audigy, Audigy 2 ZS, X-Fi XtremeMusic) until I got the Auzentech X-Fi Forte.
Maybe I'll just get back to my roots

I am a tiny bit nervous that there are no reviews for it at all even though it's supposed to have been out for a while -- I can only find reviews of the USB model.
 
My Forte does not have a heatsink unfortunately, although the part that allegedly causes the helicopter sound is the op-amp, but I don't know that for a fact.
 
Back to the X-Fi Titanium HD -- at least there are reviews of it and its quality is beyond doubt. Here's a simple idea I had -- why don't I buy a good quality 3.5mm extension, connect it to the card's headphone out, connect my headphones to the other side, then connect my speakers to the RCA output, and simply disconnect the headphones from the extension whenever I need the speakers? Wouldn't that take care of my conundrum?

 

[NamelessPFG]

I was actually thinking of that 3.5mm extension cord idea myself, but didn't think you'd actually consider it. That should provide all the convenience of a front-panel audio connection with none of the noise problems with the ones integrated into computer cases.

 

[Shub-Niggurath]

Cool, thanks. I'm going to have to think about whether I want to try my luck with the Recon3D or just go with the Titanium HD, but it looks like it's going to be one of those two.

 

[PurpleAngel]

Quote:

Yeah, I did read that Creative says they designed it that way. I was curious if that eventually got fixed by drivers anyway since Creative isn't extremely consistent with their stuff.
Since the quality of the headphone output (and the quality of the 3D positional stuff) is the most important aspect to me, do you figure the Titanium HD is the best investment? I won't mind connecting the speakers to my front panel whenever I need to use them.
As for the mic, I never use one for gaming, only for Skype. Think my Zalman clip-on would work fine for Skype with a Titanium HD?
 
I'm open to it. My case does have front panel jacks. The thing is I was never sure if the front panel header on the sound card is also wired to the headphone amp. Also, I don't know, maybe it's silly of me, but I don't like having to unplug and replug stuff, only because it creates undue stress on the connector itself. The front panel jacks always feel a bit flimsy to me.

The Titanium HD has the most support (options) for gaming audio.
 
With the Xonars, the headphone amplifier (and speaker output) is wired to front and back,
Xonar control panel settings.
Speaker, Headphone, FP Speaker, FP Headphone,
FP is Front Panel.
 
 
 

 

[PurpleAngel]

Quote:

I sold my AD700 before I got the Titanium HD, so I can't comment on that headphone specifically, but the headphone-out sounds fine with the HTF600 and SS-20. Wouldn't expect any less with the AD700 (which doesn't benefit from a headphone amp anyway, in my experience).
 
Also, I overlooked that you would consider PCI cards, in which case the Xonar DG sounds like a nice budget option. Not particularly high-end, but for $30 up-front, it offers a lot of bang for the buck...however, I've never tried it. (I've only used the X-Fi Prelude, X-Fi Forte, and X-Fi Titanium HD...spot a pattern?)
 
As for front-panel jacks on computer cases, flimsiness is the least of my worries. When they introduce all sorts of noise that an AD700 will render irritatingly obvious, it's just unacceptable, especially when half the point of buying a sound card is to have cleaner analog output than what's integrated onto the motherboard.
 
Oh, and one more question about your Forte...did it have a heatsink on the EMU20k2 DSP itself? The one I had did, but it seems like the first batches didn't.
 
...Wait a minute. Of all the cards PurpleAngel mentioned, it WASN'T one of those new Sound Blaster Recon3D cards. Specs seem worse SNR-wise on paper than the Auzentech cards, the Titanium HD, the Xonar Essence STX, and the Claro Halo+, but maybe there's more to them than we think. Still, too many unknowns for me to make a solid recommendation for or against it...

Could you not wrap the front panel cable in aluminium foil?
 
The Audio processor on the Recon3D (SB1350) appears to be close to the same as the previous Creative Labs audio processor, but now has the DAC and ADC built into the audio processor.
The audio specs on the Recon3D (SB1350) are not as good as other (more expensive) sound cards, but the price is only $100.
People will always say they want quality, but usually end up buying for the lower price.
 
 
 

 

[Shub-Niggurath]

I do want quality, but there's gotta be diminishing returns past a certain point, and I'm not convinced my headphones (or my ears) are up to the task of distinguishing between a slightly lower-end card such as the Recon3D and a higher-end one like the Titanium HD I would like the card that's best for overall performance but with a bias toward gaming, bearing in mind my ATH-AD700 are, well, nice, but low-end considering what's out there for people with the desire, need and wallet for the higher-end stuff.
In other words I don't want to pay more for a card I'd be under-utilizing.

I don't know what gaming features the Recon3D may or may not have which the Titanium HD does not, but if the Recon3D ends up being better for gaming, and if I deem those gaming features worth it, I'd be willing to sacrifice a little bit of quality -- again under the assumption that my peasant headphones are mismatched with a card such as the Titanium HD. Make sense or am I being dense?

 

[NamelessPFG]

Of course there's diminishing returns, like with everything. (I'd say that four graphics cards and water-cooling is well past that point as far as PC hardware goes, actually...)
 
As far as gaming features go, I obviously can't comment on a card that's brand-new and I have yet to use, but if I had my hands on a Recon3D, I'd definitely put it through its paces regarding EAX support and whatever they're using instead of CMSS-3D Headphone now.