[Bill-P]

Quote:

I think you're overestimating peoples' sensitivity to small, gradual phase shifts at the extremes of hearing, though maybe this is less absurd than fractions of a dB differences in subsonics.  I know people may have legitimate complaints with crossover circuits, but do you know what they're doing to the phase response, the frequencies involved?  That's not to even mention systems with only one subwoofer instead of stereo subwoofers.
 
The E11 low power mode reduces the power supply rails, which generally should decrease the performance of the electronics a little and definitely makes the clipping point lower (which is what you notice on those headphones when turning the volume up).  Anyway, I agree about the obscurity of the setting, but that's not exactly relevant now, because you know it exists.

 
I'm merely trying to quantify the differences between what people hear and what measurements say.
 
The fact is that there are still differences, though small, between these amps. If you're going to say "oh, it's all the same", then we might well say all amps and opamps sound the same. But that's actually not the case, right?
 
And just because I know the setting exists does not mean other people know about it. It doesn't make the amp any more or less capable than it is, anyhow, but it's something to take into consideration.
 
Honestly, I'm a little perplexed as to why we keep disregarding these small differences just because we assume people can't hear them. How will this help explain anything if the general assumption is that everything should be the same regardless?

 

[stv014]

I cannot tell for sure if the phase shift in the E11 is inaudible, although if it is not, then the difference likely to be minor. The phase response translates to about 2 ms group delay at 20 Hz (it decreases with frequency, so it is higher below 20 Hz), which is probably not audible according to this table. But it would be possible to simulate the filter in software for some ABX testing.

 

[xnor]

What we can measure in many aspects far exceeds what we can actually hear.
 
A phase shift as little as that is not audible because much larger phase shifts a higher frequencies, where our hearing is much more sensitive, cannot be heard with normal music either. That's not an assumption. Google "audibility of phase".
Thinking you can hear that little phase shift and tiny dB differences far outside what we call the hearing range are assumptions/claims. Unless we have some evidence to support the claims we stick to the proven or default position.
 
 
I don't know what the low power mode on the E11 does exactly, but if it doesn't just lower the gain then I don't see a reason to use that mode other than with very sensitive headphones or to save battery power.

 

[bigshot]

What we can measure in many aspects far exceeds what we can actually hear.

The amazing thing is that if you show people numbers on a piece of paper, they'll swear up and down that they can hear it, even if the sound those numbers represent is totally inaudible.

What does 2 ms sound like?
What does 20 kHz sound like?

There is no point looking at published specs unless you know how they relate to the published specs of your ears.

Would you pay thousands of dollars extra for gasoline that allows you to travel 18 inches further on a tank of gas?

How about buying an expensive refrigerator that saves you two cents a decade on your electric bill?

Numbers can mean something, but they can also represent things that just don't matter at all. You need to understand the context of the numbers.

Yes, amps that are designed to be audibly transparent all sound the same. They don't sound at all except to amplify. If they add to the sound or subtract from it, they are a lousy amp.

 

[xnor]

And even amps that are not transparent can be made to sound the same. See the Carver challenge.

 

[Bill-P]

Quote:

What we can measure in many aspects far exceeds what we can actually hear.
 
A phase shift as little as that is not audible because much larger phase shifts a higher frequencies, where our hearing is much more sensitive, cannot be heard with normal music either. That's not an assumption. Google "audibility of phase".
Thinking you can hear that little phase shift and tiny dB differences far outside what we call the hearing range are assumptions/claims. Unless we have some evidence to support the claims we stick to the proven or default position.
 
I don't know what the low power mode on the E11 does exactly, but if it doesn't just lower the gain then I don't see a reason to use that mode other than with very sensitive headphones or to save battery power.

 
I'm not claiming to be able to "hear" it. I'm saying that it's "possible" that vibrations at that level can still be "felt" even though it's not "heard". There is a difference, right?
 
And the low power mode is the default mode on the E11 that the amp comes out of the box with. Plus the switch is hidden underneath the battery... so unless someone opens up the amp and takes the battery out for any reason at all, they likely wouldn't know about it to switch it to "high power". That's a problem in itself, but it's trivial.
 
In any case, I think I have had answers to most of my questions, so thanks again for the answers.