*work in progress* My Evaluation Methods // Glossary of Terms I Use // FR Graphs for Newbs

Jul 29, 2012 at 6:50 AM Post #31 of 61
  The discussions have been fruitful for the most part, like I mentioned in my first post, they are welcomed. 

  128 kb/s is inferior because it makes the frequencies of the recording peakier, FLAC is closer to flat, that's a big chunk of what makes it better. In the same way an IEM drawing further away from flat, is taking you even further away from the original purity of the recording, preferences aside. I would have to test both the RE0 and PFE232 with my approach, the RE0 may be closer to flat, but it has high consistency issues IME, peaky/grainy and not well matched. I don't look into price or how a manufacturer places a certain product in their line-up, I look solely into performance. Do note this though.

Westone's most flat IEM is the Westone 4. Westone's most flat custom is the ES5
Hifiman's most flat IEM is the RE272 
Brainwavz/Fischer's most flat IEM is the B2/DBA02
Grado's most flat IEM is the GR10
Sony's most flat IEM is the EX1000
Earsonic's most flat IEM is the SM3
Vsonic's most flat IEM is the GR01
AKG'st most flat IEM is the K3003
Jays' most flat IEM is the Q-Jays
Phiaton's most flat IEM is the PS200

These are all their current flagships!

Big exceptions are Shure, Sennheisser and UE, but their most flat are the next ones up (SE425/UE700/IE7). And in these cases, the flagships are fairly close behind these and flatter than the others in the manufacturer's line-up.


It would appear then, that the Manus of these products realize that flatter is better.

I am also sure that it is easier to EQ a flat headset, than a colorful one. Because of better build quality/higher end components.

I for one cannot wait to see the results of your work Inks.

Keep it up and Thanks in advance.

Jim
 
Jul 29, 2012 at 9:10 AM Post #32 of 61
I don't think flat FR is necessarily transparent in the way the word is used.  If you have speakers with hypothetical dips in the FR at 2kHz and 4kHz, and then you play then in a bathroom with room echo peaks at 2kHz and 4kHz, the end result is flatter FR, yet less transparent, afaik.
 
Jul 29, 2012 at 12:39 PM Post #33 of 61
Quote:
  The discussions have been fruitful for the most part, like I mentioned in my first post, they are welcomed. 
 
  128 kb/s is inferior because it makes the frequencies of the recording peakier, FLAC is closer to flat, that's a big chunk of what makes it better. In the same way an IEM drawing further away from flat, is taking you even further away from the original purity of the recording, preferences aside. I would have to test both the RE0 and PFE232 with my approach, the RE0 may be closer to flat, but it has high consistency issues IME, peaky/grainy and not well matched. I don't look into price or how a manufacturer places a certain product in their line-up, I look solely into performance. Do note this though.
 
Westone's most flat IEM is the Westone 4. Westone's most flat custom is the ES5
Hifiman's most flat IEM is the RE272 
Brainwavz/Fischer's most flat IEM is the B2/DBA02
Grado's most flat IEM is the GR10
Sony's most flat IEM is the EX1000
Earsonic's most flat IEM is the SM3
Vsonic's most flat IEM is the GR01
AKG'st most flat IEM is the K3003
Jays' most flat IEM is the Q-Jays
Phiaton's most flat IEM is the PS200
 
These are all their current flagships!
 
Big exceptions are Shure, Sennheisser and UE, but their most flat are the next ones up (SE425/UE700/IE7). And in these cases, the flagships are fairly close behind these and flatter than the others in the manufacturer's line-up.

 
I know you hate FR graphs that don't come from your friend, but I'm going to use them anyways since they are able to give a general signature.  I need to get this out of the clear that many of the IEMs you mentioned are not flat. 
 

The Westone ES5 is nowhere near flat.
 

The Westone 4R is actually a V with a midbass emphasis.
 

Same goes for the AKG K3003...  It too is V-shaped
 

The Grado GR10 has a bit of a 3-4 dB dip to the midrange, and another 3-4 dB dip in the treble with a spike at the end that's nearly 10 dB in height.  Special note on Grado, they don't actually fully have target curves to reach with their headphones.  They listen to them.  This is how they get that Grado signature (where they all sound extremely similar, but more refined).  I doubt its linearity was a target, rather it did end up sounding the way Grado wanted it to, so he used it.
 

This one surprised me a lot.  the Q-Jays as you say are flat have a deep V in them. 
 

Phiaton's PS200 is definitely not flat as you'd think once again.  It instead has a V-shape to it. 
 
The companies flagship IEMs are not flat in most cases, they shape the music differently to create more properties out of it.  These properties I speak about are the ones defined by the gloassary (detailing, clarity, sweetness, sparkle/splash, energy).  None of these properties are defined as being flat, rather they are defined by having shape.  A suttle boost in the mid-bass causes punch and impact.  A small spike in the 2-3k range causes a nice sweetness (I've noticed that spikes in the 1.5k can do the same, but have a slightly harsher effect).  Timbre is the effect of having the main tone, as well as natural off-tones being in balance with each other on an instrument (this will create the most natural/truest timber as opposed to a more artificial one).  I will state that none of these definitions state that a flatness in the midbass causes punch.  A flatness in the 2-3k region causes sweetness.  None of them, and they have reason to say this.  A flat headphone will deliver all of these properties theoretically since they all are are small spike (but also a small recession at the same time; using some right and left limits and the idea that perfectly flat is unatainable).  There is a way to get these properties, all of them with an uneven curve.  I'll go further to say there are infinite ways to do this.  With every type of signature I've heard (bass heavy, V-shape, neutral, analytical, etc.), I've heard every single property be able to be reproduced, not in one headphone, but in multiple combined.  This leads me to believe that these properties are not part of a certain signature, but are much more involved than that.  Yes, certain signatures tend to have certain properties, but there is a list of properties that can be found in any pair of headphones iff it's tuned to produce it.  This balance for the properties is so intricate, however, that a slight change to one will result in drastic change to another. 
 
Jul 29, 2012 at 12:45 PM Post #34 of 61
No no, it's their most flat within their line-up, not all are actually flat like an Ety ER-6, you've completely missed the point....

I would have no issue if GE provided raw measurements, luckily they've listened to Rin and are starting to do so. GE equalized their graphs based on flawed studies Rin goes in depth about it in his blog.
 
The companies flagship IEMs are not flat in most cases, they shape the music differently to create more properties out of it.  These properties I speak about are the ones defined by the gloassary (detailing, clarity, sweetness, sparkle/splash, energy).  None of these properties are defined as being flat, rather they are defined by having shape.  A suttle boost in the mid-bass causes punch and impact.  A small spike in the 2-3k range causes a nice sweetness (I've noticed that spikes in the 1.5k can do the same, but have a slightly harsher effect).  Timbre is the effect of having the main tone, as well as natural off-tones being in balance with each other on an instrument (this will create the most natural/truest timber as opposed to a more artificial one).  I will state that none of these definitions state that a flatness in the midbass causes punch.  A flatness in the 2-3k region causes sweetness.  None of them, and they have reason to say this.  A flat headphone will deliver all of these properties theoretically since they all are are small spike (but also a small recession at the same time; using some right and left limits and the idea that perfectly flat is unatainable).  There is a way to get these properties, all of them with an uneven curve.  I'll go further to say there are infinite ways to do this.  With every type of signature I've heard (bass heavy, V-shape, neutral, analytical, etc.), I've heard every single property be able to be reproduced, not in one headphone, but in multiple combined.  This leads me to believe that these properties are not part of a certain signature, but are much more involved than that.  Yes, certain signatures tend to have certain properties, but there is a list of properties that can be found in any pair of headphones iff it's tuned to produce it.  This balance for the properties is so intricate, however, that a slight change to one will result in drastic change to another. 

Specify which IEMs have these "spikes" you speak of, hopefully I can Rin to eventually graph those with a proper compensation which will show an average ear will it. It may just be closer to flat than a usual dip, 2-3k regions are usually dipped a bit. I have yet to see an IEM that spikes at 1.5k, the closest I've seen was a  gradual boost there occurring from a peak coming in at 2-3k. Your latter point becomes mute given you are interpreting equalized graphs and not showing specifics, at least provide raw graphs and specify properties and "signatures" of specific cases. 
 
Jul 29, 2012 at 12:54 PM Post #35 of 61
I know you hate FR graphs that don't come from your friend, but I'm going to use them anyways since they are able to give a general signature.  I need to get this out of the clear that many of the IEMs you mentioned are not flat. 


The Westone ES5 is nowhere near flat.


The Westone 4R is actually a V with a midbass emphasis.


Same goes for the AKG K3003...  It too is V-shaped


The Grado GR10 has a bit of a 3-4 dB dip to the midrange, and another 3-4 dB dip in the treble with a spike at the end that's nearly 10 dB in height.  Special note on Grado, they don't actually fully have target curves to reach with their headphones.  They listen to them.  This is how they get that Grado signature (where they all sound extremely similar, but more refined).  I doubt its linearity was a target, rather it did end up sounding the way Grado wanted it to, so he used it.


This one surprised me a lot.  the Q-Jays as you say are flat have a deep V in them. 


Phiaton's PS200 is definitely not flat as you'd think once again.  It instead has a V-shape to it. 

The companies flagship IEMs are not flat in most cases, they shape the music differently to create more properties out of it.  These properties I speak about are the ones defined by the gloassary (detailing, clarity, sweetness, sparkle/splash, energy).  None of these properties are defined as being flat, rather they are defined by having shape.  A suttle boost in the mid-bass causes punch and impact.  A small spike in the 2-3k range causes a nice sweetness (I've noticed that spikes in the 1.5k can do the same, but have a slightly harsher effect).  Timbre is the effect of having the main tone, as well as natural off-tones being in balance with each other on an instrument (this will create the most natural/truest timber as opposed to a more artificial one).  I will state that none of these definitions state that a flatness in the midbass causes punch.  A flatness in the 2-3k region causes sweetness.  None of them, and they have reason to say this.  A flat headphone will deliver all of these properties theoretically since they all are are small spike (but also a small recession at the same time; using some right and left limits and the idea that perfectly flat is unatainable).  There is a way to get these properties, all of them with an uneven curve.  I'll go further to say there are infinite ways to do this.  With every type of signature I've heard (bass heavy, V-shape, neutral, analytical, etc.), I've heard every single property be able to be reproduced, not in one headphone, but in multiple combined.  This leads me to believe that these properties are not part of a certain signature, but are much more involved than that.  Yes, certain signatures tend to have certain properties, but there is a list of properties that can be found in any pair of headphones iff it's tuned to produce it.  This balance for the properties is so intricate, however, that a slight change to one will result in drastic change to another. 


Geez Dude,

What part of Inks statement...

Most Flat did you not get?

Turn your ears off when you read what others type.

I would also ask if you wouldn't mind stoppin the spam soes we can learn something here.

Thanks, Jim
 
Jul 29, 2012 at 12:54 PM Post #36 of 61
Quote:
 

Same goes for the AKG K3003...  It too is V-shaped
 

 

Don't know how accurate the FR graphs you posted are, but the one you posted for the K3003 (above) specifically states it's based on the "high-boost" filter, which is NOT the preferred/default filter chosen by both AKG and most of those who have heard the K3003. The "reference" filter is the one AKG & most people seem to prefer (there's also the "bass-boost" filter which most people seem to dislike). Whether the "reference" filter has a 'better' (flatter) FR than the "high-boost" filter is a different matter.
 
Jul 29, 2012 at 1:04 PM Post #37 of 61
 

Don't know how accurate the FR graphs you posted are, but the one you posted for the K3003 (above) specifically states it's based on the "high-boost" filter, which is NOT the preferred/default filter chosen by both AKG and most of those who have heard the K3003. The "reference" filter is the one AKG & more people seem to prefer (there's also the "bass-boost" filter which most people seem to dislike). Whether the "reference"filter has a 'better' (flatter) FR than the "high-boost" filter is another matter.

  Just in case people get the wrong idea. DO NOT think GEs graphs provide results of how they would be perceived by the ear, they're basically equalized. Luckily, Sonove  and, Sound and Vision provided raw measurements of the K3003 which I can kind of translate to how an ear will perceive. The K3003 isn't v-shaped, the treble is fairly flat, it does dip within 1-3k a bit in the midrange and bass is fairly boosted
Quote:
I don't think flat FR is necessarily transparent in the way the word is used.  If you have speakers with hypothetical dips in the FR at 2kHz and 4kHz, and then you play then in a bathroom with room echo peaks at 2kHz and 4kHz, the end result is flatter FR, yet less transparent, afaik.

Oh sorry when I say those IEMs are the most flat, I meant most flat to the ear, meaning that they aren't necessarily trying to get close to flat when graphed without compensations of the human ear. Headphones try to get close to this to sound flat to the ear. 
 ​

 
 
There's A LOT of confusions going on about graphs, I think I need to post my "FR for newbies" article asap. 
 
Jul 29, 2012 at 1:07 PM Post #38 of 61
There's A LOT of confusions going on about graphs, I think I need to post my "FR for newbies" article asap. 


Please Do...

I'll take two copies.

Jim
 
Jul 29, 2012 at 1:26 PM Post #39 of 61
I just mean an anechoic room (or anechoic IEM) is actually more transparent to the source than an echoic one, irrespective to the FR since there is an echo error or colouration applied in the pathway.
 
Like, I don't think the K701 is called plasticky due to particular FR spikes that cause "plasticky" sound, that's an echo error / colouration -afaik-.
 
Jul 29, 2012 at 1:33 PM Post #40 of 61
The distortion figures may be more than 1% in it's midrange, creating an echo effect in the 701s. 


Edit: 701 do have audible distortion in the midrange, may explain those comments about it.
 
Aug 4, 2012 at 8:57 AM Post #41 of 61
Aug 29, 2012 at 4:16 PM Post #42 of 61
Been gone for a while (came back to something very fishy too lol), unfortunately things are going to be slow for me at the moment. 
 
I find it odd GE doesn't measure THD as well. Honestly GE has a top-of-the-line measuring gear but their approach is in many occasions, amateurish. 
 
Sep 7, 2012 at 2:59 AM Post #44 of 61
  You know, there's that phenomenon of subbass rumble which in general BAs tend to lack in, dynamics have this strength in most cases. It's a popular comparison people like to draw, having that rumble some users mistakenly (because there is more to just these regions overall for timbre accuracy) regard it as having better overall timbre than a comparative BA.  This is an aspect that can be deceiving in an IEM's frequency response, this is where CSD comes in.
 
  Take for example, the Sony EX1000 vs the DBA02MKII...
 

  The 02s overall, have a bit more bass and well, based on the subbass FR response you would think it's at least on par in rumble.
yet...
 
 

 
Notice the drop-offs of the MK2 starting at 50hz, no decay by 30hz. In comparison the subbass decay presence (100hz and lower) of the EX1000 are very even and extend to the limits. 
 
Also the MC5 has the most subbass decay/extension of any Etymotic, it's no coincidence that it's a dynamic...
 
Having said that there are a few BAs that can manage very well here, Klipsch X10 for example and more to be tested. 
 
Sep 7, 2012 at 3:03 AM Post #45 of 61
Can you get a "waterfall"/spectral decay graph of the TF10s...  XD 
 

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