[nichifanlema]

There are lots of Audio-fiers out there in the world with vacuum tube audio equipments.

And people prefer getting NOS tubes since they have better build quality and better SQ.


Now, I was just wondering...what would happen if all the NOS tubes were used up, and audiophiles were left with only newly or recently produced tubes?

Will the quality of the tubes being produced today improve significantly before that day comes? Or will people have to give up on the NOS tube, and have to live with worse-sounding contemporary tubes?

 

[edisonwu]

Nothing goes forever...

 

[rincewind]

Surely by the time the tubes we're interested in are depleted, designs will have changed and what are currently just new tubes will then be considered NOS. Neverending cycle... *shrug*

 

[jamato8]

Sometimes it is a matter of taste but there are some very good tubes being produced and they are getting better. What drives this is the guitar amplifier business not so much the "audiophile".

Having stated this, NOS will be around for a long time as there are millions of usable nos tubes out there. I have a few thousand myself but that is because I was trading and selling tubes for a while. Millions and millions of tubes were manufactured and sadly many were put in the dump in the 70 and 80's when solid-state came into vogue but there are still many around, at least enough for my lifetime.

 

[3x331m]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nichifanlema There are lots of Audio-fiers out there in the world with vacuum tube audio equipments. And people prefer getting NOS tubes since they have better build quality and better SQ. Now, I was just wondering...what would happen if all the NOS tubes were used up, and audiophiles were left with only newly or recently produced tubes? Will the quality of the tubes being produced today improve significantly before that day comes? Or will people have to give up on the NOS tube, and have to live with worse-sounding contemporary tubes?

I've seen many articles regarding how the amp designers using the new tubes in current production as reference. I think this gives us hints that they also anticipate the scarcity of the NOS. I've used some "Re-issue" tubes, but I found they are not up to par with the NOS.

 

[LeChuck]

I have to say that I think current production tubes sound pretty good, and by definition, as time goes on they will also become NOS.

 

[3x331m]

I had chance to discuss this topic with some local tube experts, and found that some of the current "Re-issue" are exact replica of old production. However, the SQ of the re-issue is not comparable because of inferior coating material. You can use the same example in the preference of the "black plate" vs. "Gray plate" to explain this SQ difference.

 

[jamato8]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3x331m I had chance to discuss this topic with some local tube experts, and found that some of the current "Re-issue" are exact replicate of old production. However, the SQ of the re-issue is not comparable because of inferior coating material. You can use the same example in the preference of the "black plate" vs. "Gray plate" to explain this SQ difference.

Also it takes quite some time for the person on the assembly line to learn the art. The coating on the cathode was often a trade secret and has been lost with the passing of the "experts" from the 40's 50' and 60's. I have a friend who worked for RCA in the good days of tubes. He has the plaques for patented tube designs, which of course RCA holds but he invented. I loved speaking with him because down to there very essence of a tube, the finest detail, was encompassed in his knowledge. There are designs that people tout as new or a new idea but nothing under the sun is new in tube designs. I spoke with him about some of the "new" designs and concepts and he just laughed and rattled off when they first started doing it and what it entailed and what the end product was. Grounding issues, burn-in, he knew about all this like you know the back of your hand.

Some things we shall never see again due to the loss of these treasures of information and the chemicals applications of metals, sequence, temperture used for coatings and so on and so forth. It was an art that has been lost.
Also some tube types will never be made again because there isn's enough demand and never will be so we substitute. It is also practical that a manufacture use new tubes as that is what is really available in most cases without a search for that elusive and expensive tube.

 

[rodentmacbeastie]

Without the military of today using them we will likely never see the quality again.

 

[jamato8]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rodentmacbeastie Without the military of today using them we will likely never see the quality again.

While your premise is good there weren't that many tubes made just for the military. Sometimes the JAN tubes were possibly tested before being sent out and some types were put in a rack that kept them at a working voltage for a designated length of time but often the military tubes didn't last any better and came off the same assembly line as consumer tubes. I was a radioman in Vietnam and the tubes we had didn't hold up any better and for the most part didn't look any different from everyone elses. Many of the tube designs of the 40's and 50's came about due to consumer demand with respect to PA systems (power tubes), movie theaters (the boxes and boxes of 6550's and other tubes were often thrown out after solid-state) amps of all types, etc, etc. We do have some nice NOS from Russia that was military and I agree that these were designed for hard use but again these weren't consumer type tubes for the most part.

 

[Saint_1]

Here's another question for you: what did NOS tubes cost at the time of manufacture? Obviously they fetch a premium now because they're basically 'collector's items,' albeit collectibles that have use value...
Just how inflated are today's prices?

 

[3x331m]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saint_1 Here's another question for you: what did NOS tubes cost at the time of manufacture? Obviously they fetch a premium now because they're basically 'collector's items,' albeit collectibles that have use value... Just how inflated are today's prices?

IMHO, the basic priciple of supply vs. demand is the answer, within the context of audio value. There're many NOS being sold for $400-$500 a piece. This price is "Insane" to most of us, but I guess there're some audiophiles who appreciate the audio quality of these NOS, and willing to have them for the synergy of their systems.

 

[Saint_1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3x331m IMHO, the basic priciple of supply vs. demand is the answer, within the context of audio value. There're many NOS being sold for $400-$500 a piece. This price is "Insane" to most of us, but I guess there're some audiophiles who appreciate the audio quality of these NOS, and willing to have them for the synergy of their systems.

So where do companies like Emission Labs fit in?
They're producing new tubes -- yet charge NOS prices (something like $200-400 per pair, I think)
By all accounts they're excellent sounding tubes, but is this price justified?
(of course the only true answer to that question is: it is if people buy them...)

Which is why I ask the question just what are/ were production costs?

Are these just glorified lightbulbs? and are these new companies making enormous profits? or are there inherently high costs associated with tube production?

 

[rodentmacbeastie]

Jamato, I agree that the quality of the tubes was not high because they were contructed better for the military. Some military tubes were indeed better than their consumer counterparts. What I did mean to convey is the military is a VERY BIG consumer and that demand helps keep the ball rolling. My favorite tubes of any given type are usually Western Electric and these were mainly for audio. But some of the most expensive NOS tubes were around thanks to the scientific community and the military before most consumers even heard the term "consumers."


Also, many of the expensive tubes were never intended for our ears. Siemens CCa fro example were mostly used in the German postal system. Also, a large percentage went into scientific gear like occilliscopes. One of the best mini tubes is the Bendix 6900 that were design solely for radar sites. Most of the 6922 and 7308 tubes were designed strictly for lab and military use as well, the Bugle Boys were the tubes of the 6dj8 family that most consumers were listening to, correct?

 

[rodentmacbeastie]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saint_1 So where do companies like Emission Labs fit in? They're producing new tubes -- yet charge NOS prices (something like $200-400 per pair, I think) By all accounts they're excellent sounding tubes, but is this price justified? (of course the only true answer to that question is: it is if people buy them...) Which is why I ask the question just what are/ were production costs? Are these just glorified lightbulbs? and are these new companies making enormous profits? or are there inherently high costs associated with tube production?

Well, they are a little more than glorified light bulbs. LOL! I would say that product runs are limited which great increases cost. The runs are small because they are still a lot of NOS tubes still out there and the market is a very small percentage of what it was 50 years ago. Also, if the best NOS tube of a variety sells for $400 and the crap ones sell for $10... and the new good tubes sound 90% as good as the best they will likely charge 80 to 90% of the price. Remember as well that while the newer makers are sort of doing us tubeheads a favour by building them at all, they did not go into business to do us favours.

And are the new tubes really that expensive? I mean, what did a Coke cost in 1945? If a 5cent Coke now costs a $1.50 and production costs are much lower now, factor in a 30-50 fold increase in inflation as well as higher production costs and voila, a $1 tube now costs $100.