Mr Do
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All hale the Luxman tube magic. "Mr. Mojo Risin..." la... la... la...
Why tubes will always be vastly superior to solid state at reproducing music...
- Thread starter Asterix
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Leporello
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I think you are confusing creating the sound of music and reproducing it.
Regards,
L.
| Originally Posted by Asterix Why? Because tubes create true musical harmonics with a rainbow of colors... |
I think you are confusing creating the sound of music and reproducing it.
Regards,
L.
Asterix
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You may have a point, but I can't understand the point of reproducing music without making it sound musical. It's never going to be the real thing anyway, might as well make it sound good!
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| Originally Posted by Leporello I think you are confusing creating the sound of music and reproducing it. Regards, L. |
Cthulhu
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Doesn't that imply a totally faithful replication of the music would be unmusical?
(Mostly joking, by the by
| Originally Posted by Asterix You may have a point, but I can't understand the point of reproducing music without making it sound musical. It's never going to be the real thing anyway, might as well make it sound good! |
Doesn't that imply a totally faithful replication of the music would be unmusical?
(Mostly joking, by the by
Asterix
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Faithful? Means what? Like, as in, it's sounds like the real thing? Yeah right! It's not physically possible. How is a box going to sound like a full band, a singer, a pianist, etc.? I think every reproduction of audio involves working with compromises. The gear ends up being a musical instrument in itself. Like all musical instruments, the design and materials used will determine the sound quality.
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| Originally Posted by Cthulhu Doesn't that imply a totally faithful replication of the music would be unmusical?
(Mostly joking, by the by
|
Cthulhu
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I was talking hypothetically, not in a serious manner! If tubes introduce distortion (An established fact? from previous posts) and if you prefer said introduced distortions, doesn;t that mean you would find a totally faithful reproduction (Maybe a live performance, for the sake of the example) unmusical?
| Originally Posted by Asterix Faithful? Means what? Like, as in, it's sounds like the real thing? Yeah right! It's not physically possible. How is a box going to sound like a full band, a singer, a pianist, etc.? I think every reproduction of audio involves working with compromises. The gear ends up being a musical instrument in itself. Like all musical instruments, the design and materials used will determine the sound quality. |
I was talking hypothetically, not in a serious manner! If tubes introduce distortion (An established fact? from previous posts) and if you prefer said introduced distortions, doesn;t that mean you would find a totally faithful reproduction (Maybe a live performance, for the sake of the example) unmusical?
Asterix
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With a live, unamplified performance in a good acoustic setting there is nothing but pure music. All the tone comes from the musicians themselves. There is no question about the musicality of the performance based on the tone of the gear, since there is no gear involved. I don't hear any recognizable distortion from my tube amp. It's just the way the sounds feels. Anyway as I understand it both SS and tube amps create distortion, it's just the type of distortion they create... am I wrong?
Asterix
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I found this on the web:
"Younger folks reading this may not remember vacuum tube radios and televisions, and others probably still think tubes went out with eight track tape players, since over the last 25 years tubes electronics have been displaced in most applications by transistor devices. In computers, tubes were ridiculous. Early computers consumed entire rooms. Televisions also suffered size and design limitations when they used vacuum tube devices. In TVs, controls had to be adjusted frequently, since tubes change as they age. Adjustments (vertical hold, for one) had to be fiddled with regularly to get a watchable picture.
Hi-fi audio is another matter altogether. Back in the days when all stereos(monos?) were all vacuum tube, we didn't have those cute little mini stereo systems the size of a bread box that are so popular today. Still, as the average consumer has gotten access to better and better sound, there are ever-increasing numbers of people who demand better fidelity in their audio systems. The rise in popularity of tube audio has, more than anything else, to do with sound quality. Solid state (transistor) amplifiers, at least on paper, produce less distortion of the type that is commonly measured, namely harmonic and inter modulation distortion. The problem is that those two measurements don't tell the whole story. Early transistor audio gear sounded absolutely awful. If you're skeptical, find a piece of early 1960's-vintage transistor gear and listen on modern loudspeakers for as long as you can stand it. The type of distortion they produce is different from the kind produced by tubes. Tube amplifiers produce more (total) harmonic distortion, but the type they produce is referred to as even order distortion, and is not as harsh-sounding as the odd order distortion transistors produce. Large amounts of even-order distortion (as high as 1-2%) produces little listening fatigue, and can even be relatively pleasant. Electric guitar players favor tube amps for this very reason. On the other hand, small amounts of odd-order distortion (less than .5%) are audible, even by untrained ears, and make music harder to enjoy."
From
http://www.decware.com/debate.htm
"Younger folks reading this may not remember vacuum tube radios and televisions, and others probably still think tubes went out with eight track tape players, since over the last 25 years tubes electronics have been displaced in most applications by transistor devices. In computers, tubes were ridiculous. Early computers consumed entire rooms. Televisions also suffered size and design limitations when they used vacuum tube devices. In TVs, controls had to be adjusted frequently, since tubes change as they age. Adjustments (vertical hold, for one) had to be fiddled with regularly to get a watchable picture.
Hi-fi audio is another matter altogether. Back in the days when all stereos(monos?) were all vacuum tube, we didn't have those cute little mini stereo systems the size of a bread box that are so popular today. Still, as the average consumer has gotten access to better and better sound, there are ever-increasing numbers of people who demand better fidelity in their audio systems. The rise in popularity of tube audio has, more than anything else, to do with sound quality. Solid state (transistor) amplifiers, at least on paper, produce less distortion of the type that is commonly measured, namely harmonic and inter modulation distortion. The problem is that those two measurements don't tell the whole story. Early transistor audio gear sounded absolutely awful. If you're skeptical, find a piece of early 1960's-vintage transistor gear and listen on modern loudspeakers for as long as you can stand it. The type of distortion they produce is different from the kind produced by tubes. Tube amplifiers produce more (total) harmonic distortion, but the type they produce is referred to as even order distortion, and is not as harsh-sounding as the odd order distortion transistors produce. Large amounts of even-order distortion (as high as 1-2%) produces little listening fatigue, and can even be relatively pleasant. Electric guitar players favor tube amps for this very reason. On the other hand, small amounts of odd-order distortion (less than .5%) are audible, even by untrained ears, and make music harder to enjoy."
From
http://www.decware.com/debate.htm
theaudiohobby
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Wrong, both SS and tubes produce a full spectra of distortion even and odd, a quick look at the measurements on Stereophile and Soundstage will tell you that, some instruments produce odd order harmonics, so all those folks saying that odd order harmonics are musically discordant are blowing smoke.
| Originally Posted by Asterix It's just the way the sounds feels. Anyway as I understand it both SS and tube amps create distortion, it's just the type of distortion they create... am I wrong? |
Wrong, both SS and tubes produce a full spectra of distortion even and odd, a quick look at the measurements on Stereophile and Soundstage will tell you that, some instruments produce odd order harmonics, so all those folks saying that odd order harmonics are musically discordant are blowing smoke.
Asterix
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What proportion of odd order harmonics do these instruments create relative to even order harmonics?
| Originally Posted by theaudiohobby Wrong, both SS and tubes produce a full spectra of distortion even and odd, a quick look at the measurements on Stereophile and Soundstage will tell you that, some instruments produce odd order harmonics, so all those folks saying that odd order harmonics are musically discordant are blowing smoke. |
What proportion of odd order harmonics do these instruments create relative to even order harmonics?
Asterix
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It seems there is an abundance of stuff on the net about odd vs. even order distortion. Check out this page where you can listen to sound clips of it!
"The Sounds of Distortion"
http://www.pcavtech.com/soundcards/t...ound/index.htm
I have to admit the 'Second Harmonic Distortion' clip is a lot like the sound I'm getting out of my amplifier. In fact the tubes I'm using seem to amplify this effect, and if you ask me it's the coolest thing since Wonder Bread. So I suppose I do like the sound of distortion... I never realized that. Besides the smoothness and naturalness of the sound, there is this effect which I admit I enjoy!
Of the first three clips I prefer the second the most. The first sounds dull and boring in comparison, and the third is completely hideous! It's one of the ugliest things I've ever heard! So if the 'tube sound' is a little more of the second (but has some first as well,) without as much of the third, and the 'solid state sound' is a little more of the first, and a little less of the second, but with a smidgeon of the third... I'd go with the tubes if I was choosing between the two, firstly to avoid the third harmonic distortion, and secondly because a little of the second harmonic distortion is nice.
"The Sounds of Distortion"
http://www.pcavtech.com/soundcards/t...ound/index.htm
I have to admit the 'Second Harmonic Distortion' clip is a lot like the sound I'm getting out of my amplifier. In fact the tubes I'm using seem to amplify this effect, and if you ask me it's the coolest thing since Wonder Bread. So I suppose I do like the sound of distortion... I never realized that. Besides the smoothness and naturalness of the sound, there is this effect which I admit I enjoy!
Of the first three clips I prefer the second the most. The first sounds dull and boring in comparison, and the third is completely hideous! It's one of the ugliest things I've ever heard! So if the 'tube sound' is a little more of the second (but has some first as well,) without as much of the third, and the 'solid state sound' is a little more of the first, and a little less of the second, but with a smidgeon of the third... I'd go with the tubes if I was choosing between the two, firstly to avoid the third harmonic distortion, and secondly because a little of the second harmonic distortion is nice.
Leporello
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In a way you are right, of course. True, there are no perfect speakers or headphones. In the end all we will have is our preferences.
Regards,
L.
| Originally Posted by Asterix You may have a point, but I can't understand the point of reproducing music without making it sound musical. It's never going to be the real thing anyway, might as well make it sound good! |
In a way you are right, of course. True, there are no perfect speakers or headphones. In the end all we will have is our preferences.
Regards,
L.
Asterix
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Sound is a totally personal thing... every human body is unique and experiences things uniquely... there is no perfect anything when it comes to sound. But I personally think that if you like listening to odd order distortion interspersed with your music you are pretty strange. LOL
To me it sounds totally grating, disorienting, discordant, chaotic, and almost painful.
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| Originally Posted by Leporello In a way you are right, of course. True, there are no perfect speakers or headphones. In the end all we will have is our preferences. Regards, L. |
theaudiohobby
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The proportion of odd order harmonics is relative to how hard the instruments are played.
| Originally Posted by Asterix What proportion of odd order harmonics do these instruments create relative to even order harmonics? |
The proportion of odd order harmonics is relative to how hard the instruments are played.
dknightd
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They have A LOT of harmonic distortion in those samples. Way more than you are likely to hear on even a crappy stereo.
This page shows the same effects, but at various amplitudes of distortion.
http://www.pcabx.com/technical/nonlinear/index.htm
Edit: I'm curious to read about your comparison between the lux and
71 when it arrives, even though I've heard neither...
| Originally Posted by Asterix "The Sounds of Distortion" http://www.pcavtech.com/soundcards/t...ound/index.htm |
They have A LOT of harmonic distortion in those samples. Way more than you are likely to hear on even a crappy stereo.
This page shows the same effects, but at various amplitudes of distortion.
http://www.pcabx.com/technical/nonlinear/index.htm
Edit: I'm curious to read about your comparison between the lux and
71 when it arrives, even though I've heard neither...
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