[jrosenth]

Reading though a number of these threads asking for speaker recommendations, I've noticed that fullrangers (fostex, etc.) and even electrostats (magenpan) are less than frequently mentioned.

That's always seemed odd to me. Admitted not everyone likes a full range or electrostat but it often seems like a perfect recommendation ("hey I'm looking for a cheap speaker to run from a T-amp").

Fullrangers are available nicely done from Omega or - Cain - likewise but cheaper from Tekton Design or planet-10.

Drivers can be bought for basically pennies if you can make a basic box or have someone do it for you. They are magical , musically coherent and love cheap tube stuff (dared, etc.) and cheap T or D class amps (T amp, Trends, etc.).

A number of the hifi sites recommend these for budgets system very frequently - here's one example of very budget - here a higher budget - here a different configuration
You can get into it (especially Tekton stuff for around $300 - or make your own box and do one for about $100). For electrostats, you'll need a sub, but magnepan makes a $300 wall mounted pair.

Anyway, maybe my perception is off, but it just seems that on the whole we tend to under-consider these very interesting types of speakers, particularly as values.

If you are looking for speakers, particularly speakers with many of the qualities we're always saying that we value in our headphones (space, air, soundstage, coherency, etc.) - then dollar for dollar you'll be hardpressed to beat a full range or electrostat (yes. electrostat like AKG's electrostatic ear speakers).

If you are after cheap but musical and already have or are considering a small tube/t-amp/trend/etc., !!! - or even a typical box-store minisystem/sony type receiver - !!! (read this), then you probably will not do better (the full range, not the electrostat).


thanks for the soapbox.

 

[sejarzo]

Maggies need an amp that can put out a lot of power into low impedance, and are far more difficult to place correctly in rooms--a big concern if you are not a homeowner who can devote a proper and permanent space to them. Standard multi-driver boxes are more adaptable.

Electrostats, likewise, are a more difficult load for some amps that don't like to see capacitance. That's why for so many years that folks who used the original Quad ESL pretty much ran only Quad electronics......other amps just fried themselves. Not as big a problem these days anymore, but some amps remain finicky and don't perform as well in that service.

 

[jrosenth]

Yah, I guess that makes sense about the maggies - but fullrangers though?

 

[Wodgy]

There aren't many recommendations for fullranges here, because, to be frank, fullranges in general don't sound good. Listen to them, rather than read recommendations from people who don't own them and who've never heard them (AudioCircle, ahem) or who are delusional (Srajan at 6Moons).

Fullranges are like a religion. People "believe" in their "philosophy" because they're simple and people like the idea of not having a crossover, but those same people usually have no idea of the tradeoffs they're making, and those flaws eventually drive them to ever more colored amps, to compensate for the lack of baffle step compensation and the midrange peak. Don't get me wrong -- I'm a tube amp fan -- but fullranges just don't sound good.

Omegas are overrated and overpriced. Cain+Cain are really overrated and overpriced. (Once a person shells out and pays for shipping on those things, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy, with a person trying to justify to themselves that they like the sound.) Zu Druids are really terrible. I don't have as a big a beef with the inexpensive fullranges you see on eBay, because they're cheap and generally fine as desktop speakers, though you'd do much better and save money with a fullrange with a simple crossover, like this:
http://zaphaudio.com/audio-speaker18.html

Electrostats are fine, and the MMGs are worth an audition.

 

[sejarzo]

I have little full-range listening experience. The only two I have heard were miserably "honky", and from what I read otherwise, that's the commonly held opinion. So bad that I didn't bother to audition more.

And to be a bit more clear for noobs who read the thread who are learning about speaker technologies:

Planar speakers use a relatively large, flat diaphragm rather than a cone, but differ in how that surface is driven.

Magneplanars (the speakers made by Magnepan, the company) are magnetic planar speakers. Just like a cone speaker, they are driven by passing the audio signal through wires in a magnetic field--albeit in a very different geometry.

Electrostats are also planar speakers, but driven by electrostatic attraction/repulsion rather than magentically. Lots of high voltage caps inside the power supply generate some pretty high static electric fields. Generally you find the terminals you expect for connecting the signal from the amp....plus a 120 VAC cord, when you look on the rear side.

 

[labrat]

Deleted.

 

[jrosenth]

Interesting.

I personally think full rangers can sound great, especially when they have a filter them, like the one from Zaph (some sound honky, some don't - most of the honky ones are not using a filter/baffle step correction). And that Zaph full range project was his rehash of his previous full range project, one of his most popular for desktop speakers. Not unlike the popularity of Tony Gee's (humble homemade hifi) little project here - which also highlights the tradeoffs and advantages of going full range.

There's definitely a good chunk of people, myself included, who have that take - even at audio karma, audioasylum, madisound and elsewhere (also a good idea to check out the specialized sub forums there - like audioasylum's high efficiency speaker forum).

A whole host of reviews, not just one person at 6 moons, really, really dig Omega, Cain & Cain, etc. (I guess, that's why someone who didn't like them would say they are over-rated - because they are often rated very highly.)

I don't think it's delusional reviewers or self-fulfilling prophecy that accounts for all that.

Regarding the maggies, no a t-amp won't drive maggies (that was in reference to full rangers, same thing with a SET amp - most full rangers driven very nicely by either).

Yes you do need space like some other speakers - regarding their power requirements - lots of folks report great success with the new cheap maggies with inexpensive electronics: vintage receivers (marantz) as well as even new panasonic 57s. Moving on up the scale bunch of folks swear maggies or Quads compete with almost anything at higher price points.

My point is not that a full ranger or an electrostat is better than a conventional speaker - just that with so many great reviews (all of that "over-rated-ness") and devotees, why aren't they being talked about at least as an alternative to the standard 300-700$ paradigm/PSB/etc. reccomendations?

It's sort of like a speaker person coming to this forum and getting recommended Senns all day long. Senns may own way more market share, and you might not like Grados - in fact you might hate them and chalk up all their praise as delusional reviewers and their devotees as victims of self-fulfilling prophecy, but you might be missing out.

 

[tourmaline]

I also owned a high end electrostatic system. They sound terrific with lots of detail, but lack in general bass and drive. Often the body is thin(er) then a body on a dynamic counterpart and musicallity is also better in general with dynamic speakers. Another concern is placing and space. They need more space around the speaker then dynamic speakers and if placed wrong, they just sound horrible, so they are much harder to get right in a general living room then a comparable dynamic speaker.

For the money, they offer execptional detail. if you want to have both detail and musicallity, you have to pay quite a bit of money for dynamics, here are electrostatic systems cheaper.

They need high voltage, so mostly heavy amps, means expensive. Most also have a converter in their feet to convert the voltage to a much higher voltage that's needed to swing the membrane. means big...a good one is not unusually 2 meters high and 1 meter width. Especially if you wanna have a good bass response.

So, most of the time dynamic speakers are more musical but lacking a bit of resolution and are easier to place in a comon livingroom.

I would love something in between, drive, body and musicallity of the dynamic speakers and the detail of the electrostats.

 

[jrosenth]

Here, for example, is a positive feedback review praising the full range Cain & cains,, ironically comparing them in terms of speed and imaging to the Quod 57s.

I had the $300 wall mounted maggies and loved them, wall mounted, they imaged nicely in a couple different placed i used them. Then when on the phone to madisound, the guy recommended a fostex full ranger - best $75 I ever spend - using a filter not unlike the one from humble homemade hi-fi or Zaph.

I think Mark Levinsons for the electrostat hybrid, although that may not be what you have in mind.

 

[sejarzo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrosenth /img/forum/go_quote.gif ........Yes you do need space like some other speakers - regarding their power requirements - lots of folks report great success with the new cheap maggies with inexpensive electronics: vintage receivers (marantz) as well as even new panasonic 57s. Moving on up the scale bunch of folks swear maggies or Quads compete with almost anything at higher price points.

I think there is a good reason that vintage Marantz or the new receivers that incorporate digital power amps would work better than most recent stereo/HT receivers. Older receivers would usually just about double their output into 4 ohm loads. My Onkyo TX-SR701, purchased in late 2003, claims to drive 100 w/ch into all 5 channels, but sounds thin when driving just the front l/r in stereo mode at moderately high levels. I connected the power amp section from a NAD C320BEE instead, and it sounded almost as if I was running the sub (even though the sub was unplugged)....and the NAD was rated for only 50 w/ch. Most recent HT receivers rated at 100 w/ch in 2003 carried warnings not to connect them to 4 ohm loads. The power amp stages are pretty wimpy when it comes down to it, hardly what is needed for Maggies!

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrosenth /img/forum/go_quote.gif My point is not that a full ranger or an electrostat is better than a conventional speaker - just that with so many great reviews (all of that "over-rated-ness") and devotees, why aren't they being talked about at least as an alternative to the standard 300-700$ paradigm/PSB/etc. reccomendations?

What decent electrostats are on the market for that $500-ish price range? Martin Logan has something under $1k, but rarely are there many sub-$1k electrostats available used on Audiogon, unless I'm confused.

The fussy set up, larger size, cost, horror stories about maintaining them probably contribute to their lack of popularity.

 

[jrosenth]

I'd personally take the $300 maggies with a sub or even the $500 floorstanding maggies over a paradigm/psb in that price range. Don't know if they are descent of not

- I have hear the big maggies and the quods, and those are definitely descent but not cheap (although I'd still take a 1k maggie over corresponding paradigm/psb/etc.).

 

[Jon L]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wodgy /img/forum/go_quote.gif or who are delusional (Srajan at 6Moons). Omegas are overrated and overpriced. Cain+Cain are really overrated and overpriced. (Once a person shells out and pays for shipping on those things, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy, with a person trying to justify to themselves that they like the sound.) Zu Druids are really terrible.

LOLROTFL!! But I respectfully disagree... Well, except maybe for that Srajan thing

I've heard plenty of bad sounding speakers of all designs: full-range, multi-driver, single-driver, extended single-driver with tweeter and/or sub, electrostat, electrostat hybrid, planar, ribbon, etc, etc. It's simply a matter of life that very few great speakers truly exist.

Cain & Cain and Zu are not some mythical magic speakers that will sound great anywhere, but neither are many respected multi-driver speakers. With most speakers, it's really largely up to the skill and commitment of the user to set them up and feed them to get great sound, or at least non-terrible sound IMO.

 

[tyrion]

I love my Omega SuperHemps. I sold my Abbys as they never worked in the room I had them in. boomana bought them and they sound great in the space she has them in. My area, at the time was very open and the low end seemed to really suffer. The Omegas were great in the open area and in the smaller room I am in now. They have plenty of low end, very enjoyable to my ears. I'm not the religious type so you will never hear me say full range/flea amp is the only way. I was listenig a pair of System Audio Rangers with a Cary Preamp and big Cary monoblocks and it was sounded amazing. However, the cost is probably 3 times my system, which I've preferred to the equivalent priced conventional speaker rig with the high powered amp. In the end though, it's what works for you at that particular moment in time.

 

[hugz]

I have fullrangers and love them, but would never recommend them to anyone. why? because it's a matter of taste, and for most people it's simply easier to recommend a multiple driver speaker.

i've heard fullrangers that sound amazing and fullrangers that sound bad and honky. to stereotype them is probably just displaying your ignorance about them. some sound good, some sound bad. but either way, no one should buy them without trying them first. they're simply a higher risk investment. if you like them you'll love them.. otherwise you just wasted your money. at least with 2ways or 3ways pretty much everyone is guaranteed to at least like them

 

[Wodgy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrosenth /img/forum/go_quote.gif Interesting. I personally think full rangers can sound great, especially when they have a filter them, like the one from Zaph (some sound honky, some don't - most of the honky ones are not using a filter/baffle step correction).

I agree with you here. A proper filter changes everything and can make fullranges listenable, but it also drives away most of the quasi-religious types, because it's no longer pure.

The honkiness is unrelated to baffle step, for the most part. The honkiness is more related to the rise in frequency response in the midrange, followed by the inevitable drop at higher frequencies, creating a hump in the midrange. Proper baffle step correction helps balance this out a bit at the low end, but it's really a separate issue. Yes, a handful of drivers don't have the midrange issue as badly, but it never really goes away without a filter.

Once you get into filters, it's worth considering coaxials. They have most of the power response benefits of fullranges, without the bucket of problems.