[coffeecupman]

Hello,

First time poster, big admirer of this board. I'm an audiophile who is about to break into portable audio. I'm often in noisy environments and so I want to go in-ear. I don't have any qualms about spending big money on headphones, as usually I find you get what you pay for.

However, I am shocked at what I am noticing as I read the specs for the best of the best in-ear monitors. The Ultimate Ears frequency response drops off beyond 16kHz. And I mean DROPS OFF. As I look around. Sensaphonics? Nearly the same. Westone ES3? Up to 18k now, and it looks like the only ones that go to even 19kHz are the Shures.

Can someone explain why the high end in-ear phone manufacturers aren't delivering the full bandwidth of even the limited CD range of 20-20k? Before anyone says "you can't hear it", know in advance that I disagree. I am a great believer in wide bandpass systems and even if many people can't sense above 19k, 16k is taking it a bit too far. There is a lot of information on recordings from 16k-20k. Heterodyne frequencies beat within the audible range, and are a part of that "being there" feeling.

I just think it's strange that in-ear manufacturers seem to have all agreed to let the highs fall off. This is peculiar to the in-ear market. Over-ear phones wouldn't go below 20k, and loudspeaker manufacturers wouldn't either. Why is it acceptable for in-ears? I am suspicious that there is some science here that I'm missing out on, since it is such a family-wide specification.

And no, I'm not obsessed with specifications. The listening is obviously the final word. But missing information is missing information, and that goes against my principles as an audiophile trying to get everything that was on the master tape into my ears.

All the best, and looking forward to your thoughts and comments,

ccm

 

[PiccoloNamek]

Something about the physical nature of balanced armature drivers causes this problem. It is an inherent limitation. I'm not sure what it is, exactly. I wish an expert on this would chime in.

 

[jilgiljongiljing]

yes I think it has something to do with "How IEM's work" that prevent them from reaching the extremes. But true, someone who has actually done some research in this area will be able to give an accurate answer.

 

[cotdt]

it applies to full-sized cans as well, but for different reasons (the protective grills screen out the upper treble).

 

[PiccoloNamek]

Not really. I can clearly hear the difference in upper treble response between my ER4 and HD650, and it is a big difference.

 

[cotdt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PiccoloNamek /img/forum/go_quote.gif Not really. I can clearly hear the difference in upper treble response between my ER4 and HD650, and it is a big difference.

yes, the IEMs are rolled off and have no upper treble at all (10kHz+). the full size cans can extend to maybe 14kHz due to the cloth grills. I compared cymbals on my speaker versus various full-sized cans, and I can't even hear the treble portions of the cymbals on the headphones. There is no "air"

 

[PiccoloNamek]

I think your problem isn't headphones then, but rather, hearing loss. The HD650s are at -5db at 20kHz and extend all the way to 39kHz. Cymbals are rendered excellently. The ER4s extend to 16kHz and have plenty of energy at 10kHz. Some IEMs have more than +10dB of energy in this area.

Saying that IEMs only extend to 10kHz and full-size headphoens to only 14kHz is ludicrous and completely unfounded.

 

[Thelonious Monk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cotdt /img/forum/go_quote.gif yes, the IEMs are rolled off and have no upper treble at all (10kHz+). the full size cans can extend to maybe 14kHz due to the cloth grills. I compared cymbals on my speaker versus various full-sized cans, and I can't even hear the treble portions of the cymbals on the headphones. There is no "air"

an exaggeration if i've ever seen one

fullsize cans will get up to 20khz no sweat, as long as something isn't horribly wrong.

 

[M0T0XGUY]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thelonious Monk /img/forum/go_quote.gif an exaggeration if i've ever seen one fullsize cans will get up to 20khz no sweat, as long as something isn't horribly wrong.

I agree. Even the most basic of headphones generally have better frequency responses than speakers; a good set will reach 24khz at best. Whether you prefer the sound from speakers is another story, but there's no doubt that headphones are much better when it comes to frequency range.

 

[qazwsx]

Most if not all IEMs drop off there. I'm just taking a guess that it either has to do something with the driver size or the way it fits in your ear.

But there are PLENTY of full-sized cans that reach past 16 kHz.

 

[electro house]

Quote:

Why no "superphone" frequency rsp. above 16kHz-ish?

This is what my dog keeps asking me.

He claims even the best ones available are lacking at the higher frequencies.

 

[milkpowder]

Quote:

Originally Posted by M0T0XGUY /img/forum/go_quote.gif I agree. Even the most basic of headphones generally have better frequency responses than speakers; a good set will reach 24khz at best. Whether you prefer the sound from speakers is another story, but there's no doubt that headphones are much better when it comes to frequency range.

Not entirely correct. Diamond, beryllium, aluminium and ribbon tweeters can reach around 70kHz, 40kHz, 30kHz and 100kHz respectively.

 

[germanium]

What I found is the ER4P/S are truelly accurate in their presentation of the sound of cymbles. Having listened to both the live mike feed & the live of the same unamplified sound I think I'm definately qualified to make this assertion. response beyond 17KHz is not nessessary to capture the actual sound of said instrument as the only thing that is beyond this frequency is very weak harmonics. Weak enough as they would very likely go unheard even live I.E. at least 20db down from the sounds that are below 17KHz. Most energy for cymbles is centered around 8-12Khz depending on the make. energy in this range would overwhelm any higher harmonics in a live situation.

It is not the senhiesers that are accurate here, it is the ER4P/S that is.

 

[PiccoloNamek]

Quote:

It is not the senhiesers that are accurate here, it is the ER4P/S that is.

This is clearly wrong. For this to be true, the Senns would have to be adding information which is not there, which they don't. The information is there, and they are reproducing it. The ER4s can't.

 

[cotdt]

It's all relative. Compare the top end "air" of a ribbon tweeter to any headphone and the difference is obvious. The rendering of cymbals is worlds better with the ribbon tweeter, or even a decent dome tweeter. -6dB at 20kHz means that the sound is played 4 times lower in energy. Don't forget that the grill between your ear and the headphone driver attenuates the treble.