[TheSonicTruth]

1. Clearly though, you only got a very short way up the "learning curve"! As demonstrated by your next point ...

2. How would it be easy to master for that, haven't you read or understood anything in this thread? How would it be "nice and easy to master" music which is composed, recorded and mixed for extreme levels of compression for someone who doesn't want compression? And, even if it were possible, who's going to pay for it?

G

So are you suggesting that a lot of the 'pre-mastered' mixes of modern top-40 oriented songs, and other genres, are more dynamic than those of 30-50 years ago? I would actually love to hear that, before the mastering process begins. Might sound awful, might sound pretty lush or laid-back. Who knows?

 

[bigshot]

I hear a lot of music released on CD that is more dynamic than in the 70s for sure. During the oil crisis labels took to recycling old vinyl, and the noise floor of LPs rose. This was particularly true of the rock and pop genres. How did they deal with a higher noise floor? They increased the compression. LPs are more compressed than CDs on the average.

 

[TheSonicTruth]

I hear a lot of music released on CD that is more dynamic than in the 70s for sure. During the oil crisis labels took to recycling old vinyl, and the noise floor of LPs rose. This was particularly true of the rock and pop genres. How did they deal with a higher noise floor? They increased the compression. LPs are more compressed than CDs on the average.

Then what accounts for so many cases of modern CD+Vinyl releases where the needledrop WAV registers DR12 and the CD/digital file only DR8? Do turntable & stylus mechanical variables account for much of that discrepancy? I know, I know, needle drop values are allegedly invalid! But still, I'm pondering that difference, since it has been insisted that the same master was used for both LP and digital formats.

 

[RRod]

Then what accounts for so many cases of modern CD+Vinyl releases where the needledrop WAV registers DR12 and the CD/digital file only DR8? Do turntable & stylus mechanical variables account for much of that discrepancy? I know, I know, needle drop values are allegedly invalid! But still, I'm pondering that difference, since it has been insisted that the same master was used for both LP and digital formats.

If you do 10 digital recordings of the vinyl, do they ALL end up DR12? Just wondering if anyone has measured variance in the rating for needle drops. After all, one spurious peak is all you need to significantly change the reading.

 

[TheSonicTruth]

If you do 10 digital recordings of the vinyl, do they ALL end up DR12? Just wondering if anyone has measured variance in the rating for needle drops. After all, one spurious peak is all you need to significantly change the reading.

Well, the needledrop assumes a shrinkwrap, not something that's been around, and around and and around and around and around for a few years, or, that someone attempted to play with an axe blade or used for a knife throwing tournament.

So hopefully no Grand Canyon-sized scratches to send the DR up to 25 or something, And for sure a serious, well adjusted table with some actual heft to it and a decent preamp, not a $19.95 USB thing of 80% plastic parts.

 

[bigshot]

Then what accounts for so many cases of modern CD+Vinyl releases where the needledrop WAV registers DR12 and the CD/digital file only DR8?

That's easy to answer. They're deliberately hobbling the CD to validate the forgone conclusions of people who would buy expensive vinyl. SACD does the same thing. The redbook layer rarely matches the SACD layer in popular and rock music. I found one SACD that had a totally different mix on the CD layer than the SACD. They had put the remaster of the album on the SACD layer and the decade old original release on the CD layer.

 

[gregorio]

[1] Then what accounts for so many cases of modern CD+Vinyl releases where the needledrop WAV registers DR12 and the CD/digital file only DR8?
[2] Do turntable & stylus mechanical variables account for much of that discrepancy? I know, I know, needle drop values are allegedly invalid! But still, I'm pondering that difference, since it has been insisted that the same master was used for both LP and digital formats.

1. Did you not watch the video posted in post #38 explaining and demonstrating this or did you just not understand it?
2. It can be clearly seen that there is distortion of the waveform peaks (pretty much all the peaks) with vinyl which causes the higher DR reading. Whether that distortion is an unavoidable consequence of the cutting procedure, stylus playback or a combination of both is unclear. It also seems that this unwanted distortion is largely or entirely inaudible.

G

 

[TheSonicTruth]

1. Did you not watch the video posted in post #38 explaining and demonstrating this or did you just not understand it?
2. It can be clearly seen that there is distortion of the waveform peaks (pretty much all the peaks) with vinyl which causes the higher DR reading. Whether that distortion is an unavoidable consequence of the cutting procedure, stylus playback or a combination of both is unclear. It also seems that this unwanted distortion is largely or entirely inaudible.

G

Some posts must have been deleted prior to that one containing the video, because #38 no longer is that post. It's something I posted, that's how I know that.

I found it, it's now #36 'in the stack' so to speak. Yes, I have viewed that video prior to posting on headfi.

I generally regard anything Ian has to say on the matter of loudness with guarded skepticism, as I feel he talks the talk, but does not walk the walk when it comes to fighting the LW. Remember the old Henry Ford joke back when he started mass-producing model Ts? "You can have one in any color you like as long as it's black"

Well, Shepard seemed to be implying the same thing regarding song & album dynamic range a few years back: He happens to make frequent use of DR meters, both realtime and the snapshots produce the results on DR Database. He suggested then that DR8 is enough for most commercially produced pop, dance, hip-hop, rock, and country albums.

After respectfully disagreeing with Ian about that, and after having been told by him one too many times to "Use your ears", I stopped corresponding with him.


As as the reasons for the different DR values returned for the CD vs vinyl release of the same album, I agree with the reasons, but only up to a difference in DR values of 2-3. Beyond that much of a difference, I would attribute it to something additional being done to the CD version, vs what was done for the vinyl. Heavier peak limiting perhaps? Who knows? There's plenty of 'mastering for vinyl' essays on line where the engineers, in describing the steps, said it themselves: "Leave the final limiter OFF on the copy destined for vinyl".

 

[gregorio]

[1] After respectfully disagreeing with Ian about that, and after having been told by him one too many times to "Use your ears", I stopped corresponding with him.
[2] As as the reasons for the different DR values returned for the CD vs vinyl release of the same album, I agree with the reasons, but only up to a difference in DR values of 2-3. Beyond that much of a difference, I would attribute it to something additional being done to the CD version, vs what was done for the vinyl. Heavier peak limiting perhaps? Who knows?
[3] There's plenty of 'mastering for vinyl' essays on line where the engineers, in describing the steps, said it themselves: "Leave the final limiter OFF on the copy destined for vinyl".

1. I certainly don't agree with him in regard to all his artistic choices but I don't recall anything he has stated which is factually incorrect. And, considering some of your prior statements, I would be inclined to agree with him. Our perception of hearing is significantly affected by what we see, which is the basis of one of the oldest cliches in the sound engineers handbook, "mix with your ears, not with your eyes"! You are looking at "sausage shaped" waveforms in your DAW, ignoring the fact that peaks do not directly relate to loudness or dynamic range and hearing what you expect.

2. I've no reason to doubt Ian on this, he's not usually factually incorrect, it's been corroborated by another mastering engineer I know and I haven't heard any evidence which contradicts his video. What evidence can you present that he's lying?

3. Show me one, you've either read what they're stating out of context or you just made that up!

G

 

[TheSonicTruth]

1. I certainly don't agree with him in regard to all his artistic choices but I don't recall anything he has stated which is factually incorrect. And, considering some of your prior statements, I would be inclined to agree with him. Our perception of hearing is significantly affected by what we see, which is the basis of one of the oldest cliches in the sound engineers handbook, "mix with your ears, not with your eyes"! You are looking at "sausage shaped" waveforms in your DAW, ignoring the fact that peaks do not directly relate to loudness or dynamic range and hearing what you expect.

2. I've no reason to doubt Ian on this, he's not usually factually incorrect, it's been corroborated by another mastering engineer I know and I haven't heard any evidence which contradicts his video. What evidence can you present that he's lying?

3. Show me one, you've either read what they're stating out of context or you just made that up!

G

3. Read the *third* paragraph(next to image of lathe) of Eric James' reply in this SOS article:

https://www.soundonsound.com/sound-advice/q-how-does-mastering-differ-vinyl-and-digital-releases

 

[castleofargh]

can't we just count loudness war and all processing as a musical trend, the same way saxophones were almost everywhere at one point? I don't believe heavy compression is going away because, well, despite all the critics, it just works and sell very well. but I imagine that it might becomes even more genre specific as it is now. those who like it, will. and those who don't will discover they enjoy another genre of music. artists will and should do whatever they want, however they want it. that's my definitive opinion on any artistic process. when it's not my own taste or my own idea of good music, I listen to something else, it's not like we lack in variety.

 

[gregorio]

3. Read the *third* paragraph(next to image of lathe) of Eric James' reply in this SOS article:

https://www.soundonsound.com/sound-advice/q-how-does-mastering-differ-vinyl-and-digital-releases

Yes, as I guessed, you've read it out of context. You can't just read bits of the article and ignore the rest!

"However, in the majority of cases the mastering processing can be the same for both .... A digital master for CD has to have a 16-bit word length, and it can be as loud and as limited as the client’s taste or insecurity dictates; with the vinyl master there is a physical limit to what can be fed to the cutting head of the lathe, and so heavily clipped masters are not welcome and can only be accommodated, if at all, by serious level reduction."

He is absolutely NOT saying "Leave the final limiter OFF on the copy destined for vinyl", he is saying don't heavily clip masters. Not compressing/limiting at all is entirely appropriate for some music genres, destined for CD or Vinyl, other genres though require compression/limiting. Another fact you're ignoring is; how much limiting/compression is applied in mastering is also highly dependent on how and how much compression/limiting has been already applied in the final mix, before the mastering process even begins. I've seen final mixes which could not be cut to vinyl even without any mastering!

G

 

[bigshot]

can't we just count loudness war and all processing as a musical trend, the same way saxophones were almost everywhere at one point?

I don't think it's a trend. I think people streaming music and listening with earbuds and mobile headphones is a trend, and popular music is just trying to serve their audience. It's certainly not a trend in other genres of music. There's always been heavy compression. It was common in radio, and I've heard it in recordings going all the way back to the late 1930s.

 

[TheSonicTruth]

can't we just count loudness war and all processing as a musical trend, the same way saxophones were almost everywhere at one point? I don't believe heavy compression is going away because, well, despite all the critics, it just works and sell very well. but I imagine that it might becomes even more genre specific as it is now. those who like it, will. and those who don't will discover they enjoy another genre of music. artists will and should do whatever they want, however they want it. that's my definitive opinion on any artistic process. when it's not my own taste or my own idea of good music, I listen to something else, it's not like we lack in variety.

I can't envision the overuse of a process in the same instrumental vein as the proliferation of saxes, or cowbell, lol!

 

[RRod]

can't we just count loudness war and all processing as a musical trend, the same way saxophones were almost everywhere at one point? I don't believe heavy compression is going away because, well, despite all the critics, it just works and sell very well. but I imagine that it might becomes even more genre specific as it is now. those who like it, will. and those who don't will discover they enjoy another genre of music. artists will and should do whatever they want, however they want it. that's my definitive opinion on any artistic process. when it's not my own taste or my own idea of good music, I listen to something else, it's not like we lack in variety.

Yeah part of this seems like people trying to put the ill-fitting shoe of classical/jazz on other genres. I KNOW what an optimal orchestral concert sounds like. Random musicians popping up in the subway to play Bolero might be an invogorating experience, but it's not something I'd download as a reference version. But what's the 'optimal' sound for rock, or EDM, or pop-schlock? Once you start throwing sounds through electronics, or just making them up electronically, it's up to the artists, the engineers, and the public to define the sound. If that definition is changing with the times, and it's what everyone save a few audiophiles wants, is it wrong? Should mastering engineers throw hissy fits and quit when someone asks them to make a Death Magnetic?