[J-Pak]

I'm a subscriber to the Music Matters jazz series (Blue Note reissues mastered by Steve Hoffman and Kevin Gray on 2x 180 gram vinyl at 45 rpm http://musicmattersjazz.com/index2.html). Even if I ignored all other vinyl out there and was only buying these Blue Note reissues that alone would make owning a mid-end turntable worth it to me. There is no CD counterpart that can match the soundstage, dynamics and in the room feel of those LPs.
 
They are quite expensive, but they are more worth it than all the small techno gadgets and trinkets in the headphone hobby.

 

[jp11801]

I love that series of LPs and am a subscriber as well, I must say though that a good needle drop of these captures what I am hearing to a T. The xrcd version of this series are quite good as well though and if you cant get the lps then those cds are the second best shot, 

 

[gsawdy]

Quote:

 
 
 
So one playing field leveler is using high quality CDs. I find Japanese CDs with an obi to sound superior to the usual product, even when comparing recent ECM titles between Western and obi bearing discs. Another obvious candidate is JVC's XRCD product. A convincing demonstration of how much care is rewarded in the CD creating business is how they do it.
http://www.xrcd.com/tech/xrcd24a_e.html
http://www.elusivedisc.com/xrcdprocess.pdf
 
Ask me next year and I might feel differently!
 
Clark

Clark, 
Thank you for the links re XRCD.  This is new to me.  Can you provide links to Japanese sources you have found reliable?  Anythng to beaware of?  BTW, what is "obi"?
TIA,  George

 

[Krav]

I agree with all you said, yet here's an additional thought. What about the mixes that were done taking into account the euphonic coloration to be expected during the LP reproduction?
 
Case in point - Pink Floyd's Wall. I enjoyed it immensely using analog equipment back in the day, then lost interest after listening to its CD version, and recently rediscovered it on a decent 24/96 LP rip. Sure, the transients are softer and there is shellac noise in pauses, but vocals sound so ... true ... and send chills down my spine.
 
The modern digital is better than LP of course, but, as many members mentioned before, only if it is properly mastered. Another case in point is Pink Floyd's Dark Side of The Moon. The SACD version kills both LP and CD versions - absolutely astonishing.
 
So maybe keeping euphonic coloration of original LP on the rip is not such a bad idea after all Consider that Allen and Heath still make good money selling mixers with euphonic distortions designed in, I guess they are in demand to compensate for the lack of such distortions in the modern recording and reproduction equipment.
 
Quote:

It's called euphonic coloration. Harmonic distortion, wow and flutter, warmish sonic balance... can make for or more organic characteristic than the pure original signal – which may be affected by some technical imperfections of the recording equipment or too revealing for the imperfections of the playback equipment.
 
I have digitized quite a few LPs, with a decent turntable system consisting of a Thorens TD 321 with Linn Basik arm with Shure Ultra 500 pickup and a Creek OBH-15 phono preamp with OBH-2 power supply. A/D conversion was done by an E-Mu1212M. The slight basic equalization needed for removing the phono system's (euphonic) coloration made the recordings virtually indistinguishable from CD rips, apart from a slight softness of attacks now and then and of course some noise. Never did they sound better, though.
.

 

[Clarkmc2]

 
Quote:

Clark, 
Thank you for the links re XRCD.  This is new to me.  Can you provide links to Japanese sources you have found reliable?  Anythng to beaware of?  BTW, what is "obi"?
TIA,  George

I am afraid that I have purchased my XRCD's from a local hi fi shop that stocks music as a courtesy more than anything else. I have also heard that JVC has ceased production of new titles. While I can't verify that, it is probably true in this current economy.
 
An "Obi" is a name taken from Japanese for the traditional sash (or belt if you will) worn with some types of clothing. On an LP or CD it is a banner in Japanese found around part of the jewel case or LP cover. Lord knows what it says (other than the price in Yen), but you will know one when you see one. If you obtain a used copy it may or may not have had one and it would be hard to tell. Disks - and discs - with them seem to be of higher sound quality than those not blessed with them.
 
The shop owner that managed to collect quite a few of these Obi CD's has found his Asian sources, web sites I think, drying up. At $30-35 us each, they were never cheap. Also, like their vinyl counterparts, the production runs are small and they are soon gone. Search vinyl shops and sites that carry 180 gram virgin disks and you will find them often.
 
Clark

 

[gsawdy]

Quote:Originally Posted by Clarkmc2/img/forum/go_quote.gif  

I am afraid that I have purchased my XRCD's from a local hi fi shop that stocks music as a courtesy more than anything else. I have also heard that JVC has ceased production of new titles. While I can't verify that, it is probably true in this current economy.
 
An "Obi" is a name taken from Japanese for the traditional sash (or belt if you will) worn with some types of clothing. On an LP or CD it is a banner in Japanese found around part of the jewel case or LP cover. Lord knows what it says (other than the price in Yen), but you will know one when you see one. If you obtain a used copy it may or may not have had one and it would be hard to tell. Disks - and discs - with them seem to be of higher sound quality than those not blessed with them.
 ........................ 
Clark



Hi Clark, 
 
Thank you for those explanations.  I'm still working on getting my system in the form I want--need to diymod the 5.5 ipod but then it's time to stop visiting hardware forums and start visiting used cd stores.  So hopefully I can stumble on some of these although the obi info would be gone---maybe some audiophile sites in Japan.
 
George

 

[Clarkmc2]

 
Quote:

Originally Posted by gsawdy /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
Hi Clark, 
 
Thank you for those explanations.  I'm still working on getting my system in the form I want--need to diymod the 5.5 ipod but then it's time to stop visiting hardware forums and start visiting used cd stores.  So hopefully I can stumble on some of these although the obi info would be gone---maybe some audiophile sites in Japan.
 
George

Hi, George,
 
Many collectors/listeners will retain the obi, so not all have been thrown in the bin by the time they hit the used market. It might also be possible to research which editions had them. There are a heck of a lot of collector sites online, I would think. I can tell you the product would usually have a connection with the Far East, even if it were manufactured elsewhere.
 
I could not agree more, buying music is much more important than buying gear to play it. It is all about the music - or at least it should be. There are guys who enjoy the tinkering so much they listen to their gear instead of their music. Those would be the audiophiles who give us all a bad name. Being a gear hobbyist is fine, but don't call it enthusiasm for music.

 
Clark

 

[SoupRKnowva]

ill say that i am only a fan of needle drops when they offer significant advantages to the cd. Such as with Stadium Arcadium by the Red Hot Chili Peppers, which was mastered horribly on cd, but by steve hoffman on LP. And coincidentally the vinyl version of lady gaga's fame monster has a ton more dynamic range and less clipping, and way better bass across the board then the cd version. though since it is labled as a promo on pbthal's website it could be a different mix...
 
Edit: so to summarize, i love needle drops when they have less brickwallage then the cd version 

 

[regal]

Its all in the mastering,  only a few people in the world are good mastering engineers with digital (Steve Hoffman),  when you transfer to digital if you use a good preamp and ADC you are getting the Lp mastering which 9 times out of 10 is better than the compression they over use on CD's.

 

[Landis]

I have a vinyl-ripped version of Frank Zappa's Hot Rats album and I must agree. The format is lossless, but the vinyl was a little old (not to mention the turntable itself was a vintage garage sale buy) so some pops and so on were transferred to the digital format, but boy, that warm organic sound is hard to beat even with the imperfections.
 
Unfortunately, there's not a whole lot I want to take the time to rip from my family's collection and even my friends have a limited collection of vinyls I'd want to bother to transfer over. But if I see something I really want at a garage sale or record store, you bet your ass I'm going through the trouble of converting it.

 

[regal]

My hope is one day someone with a high end turn-table and a R2R ADC will transfer the classic rock albums of the 60's/70's.  

 

[Skylab]

Quote:

Its all in the mastering,  only a few people in the world are good mastering engineers with digital (Steve Hoffman),  when you transfer to digital if you use a good preamp and ADC you are getting the Lp mastering which 9 times out of 10 is better than the compression they over use on CD's.

Agreed.  I wish I had time to needle-drop all of my MFSL LP's.  I have some real classics, where there simply isn't a CD mastering anywhere near as good.

 

[Beagle]

Quote:

It's called euphonic coloration. Harmonic distortion, wow and flutter, warmish sonic balance... can make for or more organic characteristic than the pure original signal – which may be affected by some technical imperfections of the recording equipment or too revealing for the imperfections of the playback equipment.
.

Utter nonsense.

 

[Krav]

Ah, that's the way to quickly accumulate 3,000+ posts and become the "headphoneus supremus" - short insulting unsubstantiated remarks!
 
Why is euphonic coloration a nonsense?
 
Quote:

Utter nonsense.

 

[nikongod]

Most of Beagles posts are longer and better thought out. Sadly the post he quoted didnt deserve more of an answer than he gave.
 
Quote:

 
Why is euphonic coloration a nonsense?
 

 
This is nonsense because Vinyl does not always sound good, or even better than CD. If the inherent distortions/flaws of vinyl playback were what caused the superior sound there would be a clear edge. Quite a few recent vinyl pressings are simply the CD played into the cutting head. They sound like poo, just like the CD. 
 
You can also buy (perhaps download?) "distortion generators" (hardware and software) to simulate the various flaws of vinyl. Im sorry, you cant pollish a turd (not this easily anyways) - bad CD's still sound bad if not even worse.
 
The reality of it is that there is nothing special about vinyl except that the people who could hear well and exercised good taste in mixing were around in the 70's. Perhaps the limitations of the medium forced people to be more diligent, or the advent of "easy mastering" has made mastering so easy that anyone can lay down an acceptable (but not always good) mix. Whatever the ultimate cause is for there being more truly high grade recordings from (roughly) 1960-1985 than on CD from 1985 to today there is a clear trend. People simply did it better back then. Perhaps rather than looking at how much dynamic range they can use, or how low the distortion is (whats the THD of a 16Khz sine wave on a 16/44 system? lolerskates at inherent superiority)  sound engineers need to look at what they need to do to get consistently good sound. The few who have put out GREAT digital recordings.
 
In many ways its the same as before, but with more on the lower end:
Before you HAD to be very good to get anything to work. you HAD to know your craft/art. only a few people really did, and they got jobs and mastered tons of stuff.
Now anyone can do it. There are still a few people who are very good, but they are overshadowed by amateur hacks.
 
To summarize:
The flaws and problems with vinyl are less significant than a generally bad mix, which you are more likely to get off of a CD than a record.