[Drakemoor]

I've just bought a pair of speakers from ebay without a demo, my main concern was that they wouldn't fit my preferred sound signature (which i'm very picky about)

...after 5 minutes use i came to the conclusion that they were fine ...pretty much neutral to what i'm used to.

Then i start asking a major question;

How come even high end dynamic headphones vary so much in sound signature?

Grado headphones signature is known to be bright sounding (i've tried to SR225's and although they were bright i found them enjoyable, to an extent)

Sennheiser's high end offering are often described as 'rolled off' or 'veiled'. To me this gives the impession of Senn's being dark/warm in signature.

Beyerdynamic is a mixed bag, from what can tell they offer headphones not just for the acheivement of neutrality but for specific purposes (which i can understand) but according to most users, the most 'neutral' sound of headphones is the DT880.

I've owned this headphones and although it is remarkable is a lot of qualities it is far from neutral. The amp i was using might have something to do with it (although it shouldn't be a major factor) i found them to be very recessed in the midrange and quite sibilant/exessive in the 7Khz area leading to a slightly uneasy listening. I will admit that once the DT880 was EQ'ed to my liking it was absolutely unequalled in detail/resolution to what i have in any sort of system (and that includes £15,000 in my fathers speaker setup) but i refuse to spend the relevant amounts for high end headphones and then have to manually change the stock sound.

This is a big issue to me (and probably a lot of people) in buying expensive headphones when i've just bought £200 worth of speakers and the ' sound signature' is completely irrelevant, i'm looking at other, more important aspects of the speaker rather than personal preference in sound (and this applies to all speakers in general because i never seem to have the problem of choosing sound signature in speakers)

 

[Carl]

Making a speaker that is at least reasonably neutral isn't that hard. Making a room that is though, now that is very difficult. What seperates headphones and speakers is that headphones come with their room "built in", so to speak. Room colourations are very hard to get rid of without expensive design or equalization.

 

[F107plus5]

Actually, it's amazing just how similar speakers and cans really can be!

About two years ago I finished putting together the speaker system that fully fit my families needs. It utilizes the range of speakers in the companies (Axiom Audio)line which are just slightly foreward of neutral(similar to Alessandro?). They also offer a line which are somewhat more foreward than that(similar to Grado?).

If one visits their web-site forum long enough you'll discover that their main competition is more laid-back in nature and is often refered to as sounding like the musicians are in "the other room with the door closed"(similar to "veiled"?)

...just one small example.

 

[Drakemoor]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl Making a speaker that is at least reasonably neutral isn't that hard. Making a room that is though, now that is very difficult. What seperates headphones and speakers is that headphones come with their room "built in", so to speak. Room colourations are very hard to get rid of without expensive design or equalization.

the speakers i'm reffering to are currently placed in a very small corner on a desk, walls on 3 sides, a desk below and a shelf above. As you say this makes placement very difficult (this accentuates bass for me although i have the ports blocked which solves the problem to an extent).

I know these speakers sound a lot better in a large open room compared to my small desktop (tried and tested) but this is limited to bass and other qualities that are affected by the resonances of the small area which can be problematic. I'm not basing comparisons on placement at all, even in such a confined space i find these speakers to be far more neutral than any headphone i've ever owned in the sense that i simply do not feel the need to use an equaliser with them.

My brother pointed out the fact that i should not be spending money on £200+ headphones if their sound needs to be manually changed....

EDIT: to be fair i've pretty much given up on circumaural headphones and i've settled on the ER4p's. For non IEM use i've bought what i think is the most neutral headphone i've ever used (and coincedentally the cheapest) the much acclaimed KSC75's. What gets on my nerves is that a headphone like the SR225's offer around the same fidelity for a much larger price tag and also have other attributes lacking in comparison to the KSC75's like soundstaging whilst the Koss's also being more 'listenable' (in my opinion of course, not as bright...)

 

[Carl]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drakemoor I'm not basing comparisons on placement at all, even in such a confined space i find these speakers to be far more neutral than any headphone i've ever owned in the sense that i simply do not feel the need to use an equaliser with them. My brother pointed out the fact that i should not be spending money on £200+ headphones if their sound needs to be manually changed....

There are certainly headphones out there that'll be more neutral than such speakers. That said, if you're happy with the sound you're getting from those speakers, I say stick with them.

 

[Drakemoor]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl There are certainly headphones out there that'll be more neutral than such speakers. That said, if you're happy with the sound you're getting from those speakers, I say stick with them.

i'm not so much saying i'm happy with my speakers, the question i'm asking is why high end dynamic headphones sound signature vary's so much (i guess i'm assuming so much but as i stated in my original post i think a lot of brand names have a particular sound which a lot of people may or may not like, from what i've experienced so far even budget speakers arn't so suceptible to such extremes in sound signature)

If anyone can produce a similar experience or explaination to my original post that would clear up a lot of questions.

 

[Carl]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drakemoor i'm not so much saying i'm happy with my speakers, the question i'm asking is why high end dynamic headphones sound signature vary's so much (i guess i'm assuming so much but as i stated in my original post i think a lot of brand names have a particular sound which a lot of people may or may not like, from what i've experienced so far even budget speakers arn't so suceptible to such extremes in sound signature) If anyone can produce a similar experience or explaination to my original post that would clear up a lot of questions.

Truely "high end" headphones don't vary that much. Mid market ones like you've been discussing do vary, and prehaps more than speakers do, but much of that can be layed at the feat of the housing, not the drivers.

 

[spaceconvoy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drakemoor For non IEM use i've bought what i think is the most neutral headphone i've ever used (and coincedentally the cheapest) the much acclaimed KSC75's. What gets on my nerves is that a headphone like the SR225's offer around the same fidelity for a much larger price tag and also have other attributes lacking in comparison to the KSC75's like soundstaging whilst the Koss's also being more 'listenable' (in my opinion of course, not as bright...)

I've always thought so too - that the KSC75 is one of the most neutral sounding heapdhones you can get, until you break the $300 bracket. However, I definitely have to disagree with you about the 'same fidelity' comment - I owned the HF-1, which seems pretty comprable to the SR225, and I can say the Grados are clearly superior, at least hi-fi wise (detail, clarity, etc.) but you're right about them not being as 'listenable' as the Koss.

 

[nikongod]

Quote:

Originally Posted by spaceconvoy I've always thought so too - that the KSC75 is one of the most neutral sounding heapdhones you can get, until you break the $300 bracket. However, I definitely have to disagree with you about the 'same fidelity' comment - I owned the HF-1, which seems pretty comprable to the SR225, and I can say the Grados are clearly superior, at least hi-fi wise (detail, clarity, etc.) but you're right about them not being as 'listenable' as the Koss.

the listenability improves GREATLY with the greater grados

the overall balance goes up, the highs go higher, but they are smoother.

my ms-2's were unlistenable, but i have no problems with the rs-2, ms-pro, or hp2. odly, i dont have any problems with my sr-125 either.

 

[Davesrose]

Since every single headphone has it's following on this site, I think we can say every headphone is good. I wonder if they're actually more subtly different, but the more you get into this, the more descerning you are for a particular sound signature. The more you're looking for that holly grail that does everything for you, and the more it's ellusive. For example, to draw parellels to wine, everyone can tell the difference between a cabernet vs merlot. Ask what's the best cab from cab people, you'll get as many different answers as people.

I know since joining this site, I'm begining to really question what neutrality is!!! There is none! I'm in the Sennheiser camp because that's what I'm starting with. So far, I'm finding the 595s to be very neutral (ie not a huge soundstage, not colored, etc). The consensus I've heard from Grado people here is that they like Grados because of it's emphasis of mids, and they are more pleasing for rock music. That's why, as a newbie, I'm wondering how a Grado could ever be a "neutral" phone. Since I am hearing from Grado owners that they feel that even the 595 is warm and veiled, I'm wondering if they've really heard it. Since I've listen to Sennheiser day in and out (so far), I can see how the 580/600/650 series is. But the 595 is very different, and I'm wondering how much people who prefer Grados have quickly dismissed it because of the Sennheiser sound (the 580-veiled heavy bass for classical). As a newbie, are there any Grados that have less of a Grado sound (the quick mids for rock)? And maybe it's just because I am new and haven't heard the other names in phones yet. At least gathering from what I've heard of other sound signatures, some AKGs and Audio Technica's also reach a form of neutrality. Neutrality being well balanced that isn't drawing emphasis to one thing.

Audio gear gets more and more complex, because headphones are just one component in a system of items. You have your recording, your medium (whether a LP, CD, HD audio, or mp3), your player and/or DAC, your amp source, then your headphone. That's a lot of variables. Each one with it's personality and color. So my point is I'm now wondering if this is just an elusive quest for one holy grail

Especially if you're looking for one great, neutral, headphone. I know with my currently limited headphone lineup, I prefer one headphone for one genre of music, and another for others.

 

[Jon L]

LOL... I have not listened to a single down-the-line neutral component in all my years, PERIOD. This is regarless of price and includes headphones, speakers, amps, sources, cables, and even footers. I don't consider headphones any more colored than speakers; and while more speakers 'may' measure more "neutral" in frequency response in an anechoic chamber, frequency response is just one of many things that make up music.

 

[drarthurwells]

I love my home speaker system.

I love the soundstage and great image focus - fore and aft as well as left and right localization of a 3-D tone pinpointed in empty space.

My tube preamp and SS amp combo are instrumental here as well as the speakers.

With the right tubes, my headphone sound is as good or better overall than speakers, and matches the speaker sound in neutrality - but it does not give the large soundstage and fullness of tones as speakers, while giving greater clarity and inner detail than speakers.

The speaker advantage is in reflected sound from floors, ceilings and walls that can add to the large soundstage and spatial imaging [size=x-small]if[/size] the speakers are properly placed in the room.

The headphone advantage is the absence of reflected sound from floors, ceilings and walls that can cause phase distortion to blur images and reduce clarity and inner detail.

So reflected sound from speakers in a room from is a double edged sword - it can enhance certain sound aspects while introducing phase distortion (which headphones do not have so much of from internal reflections in the ear cup).

I love speaker sound with movies and other video material.

I love headphones for intensive and involved listening to a CD where inner detail of complex orchestration is important to me.

 

[Carl]

Quote:

Originally Posted by drarthurwells The speaker advantage is in reflected sound from floors, ceilings and walls that can add to the large soundstage and spatial imaging [size=x-small]if[/size] the speakers are properly placed in the room. The headphone advantage is the absence of reflected sound from floors, ceilings and walls that can cause phase distortion to blur images and reduce clarity and inner detail. So reflected sound from speakers in a room from is a double edged sword - it can enhance certain sound aspects while introducing phase distortion (which headphones do not have so much of from internal reflections in the ear cup).

And the same applies to supraaural vs circumaural headphones, too.

 

[reivaj]

Quote:

Originally Posted by drarthurwells I love my home speaker system. I love the soundstage and great image focus - fore and aft as well as left and right localization of a 3-D tone pinpointed in empty space. My tube preamp and SS amp combo are instrumental here as well as the speakers. With the right tubes, my headphone sound is as good or better overall than speakers, and matches the speaker sound in neutrality - but it does not give the large soundstage and fullness of tones as speakers, while giving greater clarity and inner detail than speakers. The speaker advantage is in reflected sound from floors, ceilings and walls that can add to the large soundstage and spatial imaging [size=x-small]if[/size] the speakers are properly placed in the room. The headphone advantage is the absence of reflected sound from floors, ceilings and walls that can cause phase distortion to blur images and reduce clarity and inner detail. So reflected sound from speakers in a room from is a double edged sword - it can enhance certain sound aspects while introducing phase distortion (which headphones do not have so much of from internal reflections in the ear cup). I love speaker sound with movies and other video material. I love headphones for intensive and involved listening to a CD where inner detail of complex orchestration is important to me.

Picky picky

 

[Romanee]

Here's a quote from Wmcmanus in response from some hyperbole about ue-10s -- from the current "Tomahawk" thread -- that has some relevance to this. I like Wayne's little discourse:


Quote:

Originally Posted by Wmcmanus To my way of thinking, even the best of all speakers available today cannot possibly reproduce the entirety of a live musical performance in every last nuanced detail. The best of all full size headphones are yet another step away from this elusive musical "truth", and the best of all custom IEM's take the listener back one more step. This is all part of the compromise you need to make for convenience and affordability. Speakers are cheaper and more convenient than hiring an orchestra to play at your home every night. Headphones are cheaper and more convenient than speakers, and IEMs win on both scores relative to headphones (or at least they are cheaper than the best of all possbile headphones). Yet, what IEMs are able to do (in terms of giving you a sense of attending a "private show") is so utterly fantastic that you can be temporarily fooled into thinking that they represent the last word in terms of sonic "perfection". But you would indeed be allowing yourself to be fooled if you never compared what you're hearing with your IEMs to what is available with full size headphones, and then up the ladder to speakers, and then up the ladder to a concert hall. But my business card doesn't read, "President, Mysterious Headphone Amp Company" so you can discount my opinion (which is based on many years of listening to all sorts of speakers, headphones, and IEMs) however you may wish to. It's just my (admitedly not so humble) point of view, that's all.