Why is classical music "best"?
Jul 8, 2005 at 1:55 AM Post #16 of 300
Quote:

Originally Posted by Doc Sarvis
3. That's not to say that "pop" music doesn't have its place. "Pop" deals with emotional issues; it's typically aimed at the heart instead of the head.


then why dont new generation peolpe who listen to pop care more about meaing relationshionship when the music is sung so much about it. they listen to stuff that sings about forever lasting love, every freeking radio music today is about that stuff, but they jump from bf/gf frequently.
we've talked about love for the fast few thousand years why havent it solved anything?
 
Jul 8, 2005 at 2:09 AM Post #17 of 300
Quote:

Originally Posted by Aman
Since when was classical music slow?


Slow was probably the wrong word to use there. If it isnt slow, I actually have no idea why I find it boring, I just cant stand listening to the stuff.
 
Jul 8, 2005 at 2:34 AM Post #18 of 300
For me, all kinds of music are human's emotional _expression. Most classical music are use instruments, and it's take time to express the emotion, also involved so much music theorizaion which from ancient Greek till 20th century.
Classical music usually from exposition somehow to it's climax than come down or shut off during the climax. Some Mahler and Wagner's music take hours to finish and it's hard to understand those stories. The characteristics of the rock(or pop) are been mostly useing human's voice. It's directly speak out our feelings in a short time. So, I don't think this is a point we should discuss here. Get whatever you like and stick with.
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Cong
 
Jul 8, 2005 at 2:48 AM Post #19 of 300
First off, I'm not saying classical music is "best". Classical and jazz can be large ensemble or small group or soloist. The compositions and their interpretations can be complex or simple. The compositions can be long or short. These are not their defining characteristics.

What sets classical and jazz, especially the instrumental varieties of both, apart for me is that they all have space within them to let my mind both wander and focus. They are not tied so much by lyric or culture or issue as not to allow free contemplation in the listener. They are not tied to any particular societal time or era. The action of classical of jazz compositions is to provide both reflection and release.

Sometimes I need the solace and release these features provide. Other times I want something else entirely.
 
Jul 8, 2005 at 3:23 AM Post #20 of 300
Quote:

Originally Posted by Doc Sarvis
4. As to the "timeless" idea: Mozart, Bach, etc. have already proven to be able to stand the test of time. No one knows if today's music will last, but history tells us that "pop" music is less likely to stay around becaause it it is simpler and less substantive (most pop music from 100 years ago is gone). However, we are in a new world now because of recorded music - time will tell what happens.

My 2 cents.



But let's not ignore the fact that there is an elitist element here going back hundreds of years. "Classical" music was the music for the courts and nobility and wealthy, and its composers and performers studied in music academies. Much of it survived over the centruries, probably because money went into it being published. People can correct me if I'm wrong, but there always has also been "popular" music -- the music of minstrels, dance halls, and saloons. But popular music was more likely to be performed by and for the working classes, and thus less of it survived.

The 20th century started to change this, with the birth/development of jazz and blues. (Most contemporary "pop" and "rock" is an outgrowth of jazz and blues, anyway.) And yes, now we have recordings of music to hand down to the generations to come. It may very well be that jazz blues eventually achieve an equal status with classical.......
 
Jul 8, 2005 at 3:45 AM Post #21 of 300
Quote:

Originally Posted by gratefulshrink
But let's not ignore the fact that there is an elitist element here going back hundreds of years. "Classical" music was the music for the courts and nobility and wealthy, and its composers and performers studied in music academies. Much of it survived over the centruries, probably because money went into it being published. People can correct me if I'm wrong, but there always has also been "popular" music -- the music of minstrels, dance halls, and saloons. But popular music was more likely to be performed by and for the working classes, and thus less of it survived.

The 20th century started to change this, with the birth/development of jazz and blues. (Most contemporary "pop" and "rock" is an outgrowth of jazz and blues, anyway.) And yes, now we have recordings of music to hand down to the generations to come. It may very well be that jazz blues eventually achieve an equal status with classical.......



Good point (the elitist concept), but this doesn't hold true as much from Beethoven on. He was the first to represent the artist as creator, not a servant of the nobility.
 
Jul 8, 2005 at 8:09 AM Post #22 of 300
Quote:

Originally Posted by Doc Sarvis
Good point (the elitist concept), but this doesn't hold true as much from Beethoven on. He was the first to represent the artist as creator, not a servant of the nobility.


And I believe the ministrels had their fair share of performances for the king and queen too, if I am not mistaken. I don't think one can compare music genres in that sense - what social class it is after.

After all, you have plenty of young, rich, snobby girls listening to Green Day - probably more-so than rich snobby girls listening to Bach. It's the "sophistication" and "intelligence" from Classical and Jazz music in particular that make it stand out like so. Because, in theory, vocals are used to be able make the message of the song easier to follow and get, Jazz and Classical require a certain ammount of not only intentiveness of listening to the beauty and genius of the structure, but also the musical experience and appreciation to be able to "get" classical music.

For example, whenever I hear Beethoven's 9th, I immediately feel a sense of evil and sadness. It's not as if there are words spoken to me about it like in a normal pop song - hell, I don't even know what the german choir is singing or what it means ... that's just what the music gives me. I gathered these feelings by intentively listening to the music, and also by allowing my attention span to go longer than thirty minutes (what some of you people here have demonstrated you CANNOT do).

In addition, the fact is that Classical music has an un-doubtable trump over all other musical genres in terms of complexity. Complexity often means that it's less accessible, and in this sense, yes, it's "better". You really have to either know what you are doing or highly appreciate the art form to truely understand it. The King of England didn't stand up and cheer during the last movement of "Messiah" because of any reason OTHER than the fact that he was immensely enjoying it and appreciated the beauty of the work. The addition of a huge religious influence in the piece made it a no-brainer - it was truthfully a brilliant, un-beatable work of art. And look - it stood the test of time! And these performances were open to many people - and more than just the royalty was able to view them. In two-hundred years, we will still have these pieces. We will still have Miles Davis, and we will still have Elvis Presley and The Beatles. We WILL NOT have speed metal bands of the 1990's, or Britney Spears. It will be long-gone. People will have forgotten about their minor influence in music history. I'll tell you that a lot more bands from the big-band era of the United States got lost in the dust, over ones that got re-published. In today's music world, the uniqueness and contribution that artists made to the music genre also has an effect on whether or not the music will get re-published as the mainstream moves to a different form of music. In my opinion, art isn't art unless it is appreciated by somebody. And the smaller that appreciation is (not in numbers, but in AMOUNT of appreciation per viewer/listener) the lesser and lesser art it is. This is a pretty simple yet accurate way of looking at it. Who the hell understands Warhol's soup can painting? Not too many people have tried - though the people that did got an overwhelming sense of appreciation - now look where it is. At the top of the mound of paintings.

Building off of that idea, even though pop artists have an immensely larger audience, how many of them are REALLY appreciating the music to the level and passion that one who listens to Miles Davis does? I'll tell you: not too many. Kids who listen to pop music do so because it's filler music to blast in their cars, and because it's "cool". Yes, they like it, but how would they have been exposed to it had it not been for the extreme marketing? What kind of extreme marketing did private performances of classical music give to the public? None - it persisted because of the immense appreciation it received from the small crowd that had the opportunity to hear such gems. To appreciate more complex forms of music like Classical and Jazz, it requires not only experience but also passion for what you are hearing, and in this sense, the listeners of these genres have much more of that to give than the listeners of other music such as pop and simple rock.

And in THIS SENSE, it is "better" because it is a better representation of art. Whether or not you feel this is a valid comparison or not is up to you - I feel it is since, of course, music is art. I really don't see how you could argue what I just said - any of it...
 
Jul 8, 2005 at 9:41 AM Post #23 of 300
If you'd never heard any music and you were confronted with a piece of Bach or Beethoven or Hendrix or Frank Zappa you'd probably be mightily confused.

All music exists in a cultural gel that lends it meaning.

Another thing. The reason that lots of modern folks don't like classical music is that it has no rhythm, by which I mean the downbeat (that lowest common denominator of all that's funky and hip) just isn't there. Some orchestras have a real hard time even landing all the notes on the right beat! There are exceptions, like The Four Seasons. No surprise it's one of the most popular classical pieces.

And. In terms of audio, classical music recordings neccessarily feature real instruments recorded in real locations, and that is (falsely) seen as providing a good test of fidelity.
 
Jul 8, 2005 at 2:02 PM Post #24 of 300
Quote:

Originally Posted by Aman

After all, you have plenty of young, rich, snobby girls listening to Green Day - probably more-so than rich snobby girls listening to Bach. It's the "sophistication" and "intelligence" from Classical and Jazz music in particular that make it stand out like so. Because, in theory, vocals are used to be able make the message of the song easier to follow and get, Jazz and Classical require a certain ammount of not only intentiveness of listening to the beauty and genius of the structure, but also the musical experience and appreciation to be able to "get" classical music.

For example, whenever I hear Beethoven's 9th, I immediately feel a sense of evil and sadness. It's not as if there are words spoken to me about it like in a normal pop song - hell, I don't even know what the german choir is singing or what it means ... that's just what the music gives me. I gathered these feelings by intentively listening to the music, and also by allowing my attention span to go longer than thirty minutes (what some of you people here have demonstrated you CANNOT do).

In addition, the fact is that Classical music has an un-doubtable trump over all other musical genres in terms of complexity. Complexity often means that it's less accessible, and in this sense, yes, it's "better". You really have to either know what you are doing or highly appreciate the art form to truely understand it. The King of England didn't stand up and cheer during the last movement of "Messiah" because of any reason OTHER than the fact that he was immensely enjoying it and appreciated the beauty of the work. The addition of a huge religious influence in the piece made it a no-brainer - it was truthfully a brilliant, un-beatable work of art. And look - it stood the test of time! And these performances were open to many people - and more than just the royalty was able to view them. In two-hundred years, we will still have these pieces. We will still have Miles Davis, and we will still have Elvis Presley and The Beatles. We WILL NOT have speed metal bands of the 1990's, or Britney Spears. It will be long-gone. People will have forgotten about their minor influence in music history. I'll tell you that a lot more bands from the big-band era of the United States got lost in the dust, over ones that got re-published. In today's music world, the uniqueness and contribution that artists made to the music genre also has an effect on whether or not the music will get re-published as the mainstream moves to a different form of music. In my opinion, art isn't art unless it is appreciated by somebody. And the smaller that appreciation is (not in numbers, but in AMOUNT of appreciation per viewer/listener) the lesser and lesser art it is. This is a pretty simple yet accurate way of looking at it. Who the hell understands Warhol's soup can painting? Not too many people have tried - though the people that did got an overwhelming sense of appreciation - now look where it is. At the top of the mound of paintings.

Building off of that idea, even though pop artists have an immensely larger audience, how many of them are REALLY appreciating the music to the level and passion that one who listens to Miles Davis does? I'll tell you: not too many. Kids who listen to pop music do so because it's filler music to blast in their cars, and because it's "cool". Yes, they like it, but how would they have been exposed to it had it not been for the extreme marketing? What kind of extreme marketing did private performances of classical music give to the public? None - it persisted because of the immense appreciation it received from the small crowd that had the opportunity to hear such gems. To appreciate more complex forms of music like Classical and Jazz, it requires not only experience but also passion for what you are hearing, and in this sense, the listeners of these genres have much more of that to give than the listeners of other music such as pop and simple rock.

And in THIS SENSE, it is "better" because it is a better representation of art. Whether or not you feel this is a valid comparison or not is up to you - I feel it is since, of course, music is art. I really don't see how you could argue what I just said - any of it...



So your saying because it is complex and appreciated by some it makes it the best music?
Thats like comparing two rock songs and saying one is better because its more complex and takes insight to understand. But then when you listen to what matters, you find out that song sucks and you would rather listen to the simpler song. There is no best genre, dont try to make it seem that way.
 
Jul 8, 2005 at 2:42 PM Post #25 of 300
Quote:

Originally Posted by Aman

For example, whenever I hear Beethoven's 9th, I immediately feel a sense of evil and sadness. It's not as if there are words spoken to me about it like in a normal pop song - hell, I don't even know what the german choir is singing or what it means ...



Apparently not, since the text of the choral part in the finale is titled "Ode to Joy."
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There's usually a printed text somewhere in your CD. You want want to glance at it, since the words ARE meant to be understood by the listener (that's why they're there, instead of just going "la la la" over and over).
 
Jul 8, 2005 at 2:49 PM Post #26 of 300
Aman.

That's a really patronising view of the validity of music as an art form.

Classical music survives through patronage. Very few orchestras in the world survive commercially. If government and private funding hadn't been available to classical music it would have been consigned to the dustbin of history a long time ago.

It hasn't survived because it's somehow better, but because people with too much money like it. They like it because it generally glorifies the things that interest them. Classical composers have a fine and long tradition of sucking up to anyone who would pay their bills. It happens today.

You speak with pretended authority on something you know nothing about - the future. How can you know what will survive into tomorrow?

The advent of a media driven culture means that what will survive is likely to be that which is represented best by the media. I'd argue that Pink Floyd or U2 or Frank Zappa all have a better than even chance of doing a lot better than most classical music.

Eventually of course, everything will be forgotten, including this thread, but another thing that you are forgetting is that popular music is a continuum. The "classics" are stuck in a time warp that puts them at a huge disadvantage. Individual artists may come and go, but popular youth culture will always survive as long as youth exists to refresh and evolve it.

Take away the funding and classical music will drop dead tomorrow.
 
Jul 8, 2005 at 3:18 PM Post #27 of 300
Good pop music is great but most of the stuff that I've heard can be listened to death, some pretty quickly. This just doesn't happen with good classical. I've only lived for 2 decades so perhaps l'll get sick of it in the future, but the beethoven, mozart, bach, handel I listened to as a kid is still brilliant and really enjoyable, stuff I can listen to all the time. Often a week or two is too long to listen to a pop CD. Of course some can be listened to for much longer and does have "real musical worth" (whatever that means).

You could also say that most pop is very similar, which contrasts with different composers in classical, but that would be very unfair because we've had less than a century of pop, probably more like 50 years or less for most of the pop we listen to today. It seems likely that most music written in any 50 year period in one culture is probably going to be pretty similar. Most people probably agree that 95%+ of pop is rubbish, but the figure is probably just as high for classical - we've just forgotten most of the mediocre composers.

Maybe people have trouble moving from pop -> classical listening because they are trained to listen out for certain things in pop which just aren't there in classical, like "hooks" or the little hummy bits that you remember after hearing the song just once or twice. Most pop songs seem to have 1 or 2 of these stuck onto one of several possible chord progressions. It's not that classical music of different periods doesn't have its own cliches, but often the "tune" part of the music seems to be a bit longer and more sustained than in rock, needing concentration or a few listenings to fully emerge. When it does it's usually much more satisfying for long-term listening. I think it's this, more than the larger number of instruments, that makes classical better.

Having said all that, I can't stand people who regard classical as the only real music. Firstly, like some people said earlier, these people are often just elitists who might not actually listen to that much music. Secondly, that view is wrong on the basis of evidence: a huge body of brilliant folk music (and early music) has survived for centuries, lots of it much older than any classical, so it must have some worth. Thirdly, if you take the elitist viewpoint you are essentially claiming that there was *no* worthwhile music of any kind before 400 years ago or so. Since we haven't evolved for 500-1,000x that span, at least, there have been at least 500-1000x musical geniuses to rival the best of the classical composers in human history - is it likely that they didn't come up with anything good? (Don't want to get into a deep discussion here of division of labour or anyhting, but I'm sure you get the general point).

I listen to both pop and classical. They're not the same thing and they're not for the same mood. They can both give you a musical high, though you probably burn through a lot more pop albums than classical cds to stay there. Sometimes folk or metal can be awesome, but other times it just gets really boring...then it's time for handel. For anyone who thinks classical (as one giant genre) is boring I would say give it another try
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There's so much variety you might just not have liked whatever it was you were listening to. Listen to some beethoven (maybe Symphony #9) or handel (maybe Concerti Grossi) and give them a few plays before you stop listening. Listen to recordings on period instruments to eliminate those soppy romantic strings
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If you like folk music but not classical, try some early music as a gateway drug. That's how I got back into classical after some angsty teenage years. Try Alfonso X El Sabio - Cantigas de Santa Maria or some rennaissance lute playing - John Dowland maybe - modern folk is based on a lot of that kind of stuff.
But the best music subjectively is what you enjoy listening to the most...

Edit

periurban - you're right that classical music isn't looking very commerically healthy at the moment. But that doesn't make it a less valid form of music or art (and doesn't necessarily make it a better one, either). Both classical and pop are written and produced with money in mind, just like any human activity. Commercial concerns have and always have had an impact on the production of music, because the composer/artist needs to eat. You're right, as others have already said, that a lot of elitists with no special love of music listen to classical, and always have. But then, at least as a high a proportion of pop music's listeners, and probably higher, have no particular interest in music either. It's silly to say classical music is stuck in a time-warp. In a few hundred years, the music written today which has endured will be in the classical category (which is not, of course, a label indicating a certain style, but more an extremely broad and productive period in musical history). Also, you must be aware that huge amounts of money - much, much, much more than goes into promoting orchestras - goes into convincing you to listen to current pop music. The great majority of pop music listened to today would simply not be listened to if not for the relentless hype machine of promoters, pop magazines, and so on. You're also spot-on when you say that pop culture may continue indefinitely by constantly discarding old acts and bringing on new ones - but Beethoven's symphonies - and presumably a small fraction of the pop we listen to today - are not disposable in the same way. It's this music, which still has an audience long after fashions have changed, that is better, IMHO.
 
Jul 8, 2005 at 3:18 PM Post #28 of 300
Quote:

Originally Posted by periurban
Take away the funding and classical music will drop dead tomorrow.


Perhaps you are taking of big orchestras and Opera but there are a lot of small ensembles, performers, singers, amateur choruses, small music labels very specialized (alpha, glossa, bis, hyperion, mirare-ambroisie, zigzag, etc)....
Never in the past there were so much classical music passion.
 
Jul 8, 2005 at 3:44 PM Post #29 of 300
Quote:

Originally Posted by Aman
..."For example, whenever I hear Beethoven's 9th, I immediately feel a sense of evil and sadness. It's not as if there are words spoken to me about it like in a normal pop song - hell, I don't even know what the german choir is singing or what it means ... that's just what the music gives me. I gathered these feelings by intentively listening to the music, and also by allowing my attention span to go longer than thirty minutes (what some of you people here have demonstrated you CANNOT do)"...


The Ode to Joy part is the European Union anthem, actually.
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Officially without the words (in German) of Schiller, but every now and then it is performed with choir, nevertheless. I’m sorry you get those associations
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.

The more I think of it, the more I start to believe that it is the ceremonial music, (I touched on in my earlier post) at parliament openings, state funerals, royal occasions, military ceremonies, et cetera, et cetera, that is the vehicle for the acknowledgement and legitimacy of classical music today.

Think of it: If it would not have been for this endorsement by the establishment, classical music, performed live in particular, would probably have had a though time surviving. The commercial success of popular music would have been overwhelming.
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I’m happy the elite and the establishment choose for orchestral music eventually (not necessarily symphonic) and not dancing performances, arm in arm, singing 150 verses of 1000 year old poetry, as was the official ceremonial music at the courts during the Viking era
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Jul 8, 2005 at 3:54 PM Post #30 of 300
On a second thought. The popular culture has actually also embraced classical music, or at least music played on classical instruments arranged in a classical manner (
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).

[size=small]Film music! [/size]

What would an exiting and adventurous scene be without a "classical" arranged soundtrack?
 

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