[zowie]

Quote:

Originally posted by HeatMiser But I'm not going to pay that much over cost to some frustrated fusion jazz composer just because he's stuck in a store full equipment he can't move.

15% is too big a mark-up for you - before even factoring in overhead costs like rent, electric, insurance, and people's salary?

Do you think your local pizza emporium manages to stay in business selling pies at only .90 above the cost of the ingredients?

 

[zowie]

Quote:

Originally posted by HeatMiser Why? I'm sure there are other places in the Minneapolis area that are selling the same products for less. What's the difference between going to this guy's store, going to some other store in Minneapolis, or going to the Web?

Rent. The web store doesn't have to pay for an attractive, adequately located retail space.

Wages. The web store doesn't have to pay employees to help customers. 95 percent of which is spent on people who don't buy anything (or alternative, take a commission out of the mark-up).

That's the foundation of the internet sales model.

 

[richpjr]

I still believe that all of the arguments about the ethics of buying local versus online will someday soon be moot. As technology keeps advancing and virtually everyone gets on the internet, the online sales model will continue to expand and evolve and the unfortunate casualty is the small B&M store. They simply won't be unable to compete with the low overhead of the online store or the high volume of a large chain store. The small B&M stores will someday soon go the way of the blacksmith - their market will be grossly reduced or even eliminated. This may sound extreme, but you can already see it happening and will only get worse for them. The online model isn't perfected yet by a long shot, but is kind of like the Borg - resistance is futile.

 

[kelly]

I like online. I like shopping online and I like buying online. I read reviews online and I even have friends online. I have friends who run online businesses. Some people say, "buy local to support your community" but a part of my community exists in cyberspace. While it is true that a new system will have to be devised for auditioning audio equipment, I welcome the growth of online business in general.

When you think of it, this headphone niche in which we occupy is a good example of online business working. Most all of us have purchased at least some of our gear online. Some of the companies we buy from only exist online with no retail outlet. We've gotten together online to discuss equipment and some of us have gotten together in person to compare. Some of the manufacturers have gotten involved by sending demo product to these meetings.

So... while it's always sad when a good business has to close its doors, I don't make a distinction of preference for the bricks & mortar business and I certainly won't miss some of the snobby audiohile shops that are casualties of the online movement. I do wish I knew more audiophiles locally and I could go to their homes to audition equipment but I bet if I became active in a normal audio forum, I could find some of that too.

 

[zeplin]

Quote by wiliamgoody:
Why should the salesperson not expect he/she to buy on the first day? It's up to them to find out from the customer how far along they are in the buying process. If you're there demoing headphones, it's a fair assumption I believe that you're pretty far along in the process and may be ready to make a decision. You said you knew you wanted the HD600's going into the store.


Yes but that's not what the customer wants to hear. Anything that the sales person assumes can be wrong, right? So this is why I say, only tell them you're auditioning and listening...IF they ask! Remember, he/she does not know that I want to already get the HD600's. So I ask that sales people don't assume what they don't know. There's no written law that says I have to buy from the store I audition at.

Quote by williamgoody:
Well on the one hand you're saying the when the customer is auditioning, they're doing just that, and the salesperson shouldn't expect to make a sale, yet you're saying you gave the store a shot. I don't think you necessarily gave the store a "fair shot". If you were upfront with the salesperson about your situation in the first place, there might have been something he or she could have done for you, or at least given you some reasons (if there were any) why you might want to consider buying from them.


You see, a customer could be just auditioning or they could be auditioning to buy. This is called comparing, and ahopping around. So why should the sales person have to know this? This is the whole guessing game that goes along with sales. If I, for example, wanted to compare prices between an online store and the Goodguys, then yes, I gave both stores a fair shot. You may think I didn't give them a fair shot because I didn't tell either store my agendas, but in my specific case, that isn't my goal to associate with sales reps. I want to shop by myself and there's nothing wrong with that. The store puts out their phones for people to audition, and I did just that. If they put the phones out for the sole purpose of HOPING that the customer buys that very phone they audition, then they've got the wrong intentions altogether.

 

[elrod-tom]

Quote:

Originally posted by bifcake Regarding the ethics of sampling equipment in a B&M store and buying online, I don't see that as an ethical issue. That argument is equivalent to saying that window shopping at Bloomingdale's or Tiffany's is unethical because the stores invested X amount of money in their window displays and only "serious" shoppers should view the window displays. I find that to be a ridiculous argument. A store has samples and salespeople to drum up the business. Sometimes, they'll get browsers and window shoppers. That's their cost of doing business. If they can't hack it, then they're in the wrong line of work.

I think you might be missing the point. B&M stores provide those who would like to actually LISTEN to equipment the opportunity to do so. If you take advantage of this service, you should also be willing to compensate the business owner for providing said service. That doesn't mean paying retail list price for goods that are discounted 50%+ on the net, but it does demand some satisfaction, IMHO.

Your analogy about window shopping is faulty...it would be more accurate if you went into the store, tried on a bunch of clothing to make sure that it fit just right, and then ordered it from an online vendor. The service that you avail yourself of - ensuring that your clothing will fit - is one of the reasons that people buy clothing in a B&M store. If you bought the same clothing over the net, you MIGHT end up returning something that didn't fit, or find that you received slightly damaged goods, or maybe the colors didn't look quite the same as it did in the catalog, or maybe it looked like a quality garment in the catalog, and was a cheap piece of crap when you received it....heard enough??

The buyer who shops at a physical store location, and then buys from www.cheapassedelectronics.com, is pimping the store owner out of the compensation that he deserves for providing a service. This buyer is scamming the system....and if enough people do it, we will be at the mercy of lowest-price online retailer. The day that happens...just TRY to return something. I dare you!!

 

[elrod-tom]

Quote:

Originally posted by kelly I like online. I like shopping online and I like buying online. I read reviews online and I even have friends online. I have friends who run online businesses. Some people say, "buy local to support your community" but a part of my community exists in cyberspace. While it is true that a new system will have to be devised for auditioning audio equipment, I welcome the growth of online business in general. When you think of it, this headphone niche in which we occupy is a good example of online business working. Most all of us have purchased at least some of our gear online. Some of the companies we buy from only exist online with no retail outlet. We've gotten together online to discuss equipment and some of us have gotten together in person to compare. Some of the manufacturers have gotten involved by sending demo product to these meetings. So... while it's always sad when a good business has to close its doors, I don't make a distinction of preference for the bricks & mortar business and I certainly won't miss some of the snobby audiohile shops that are casualties of the online movement. I do wish I knew more audiophiles locally and I could go to their homes to audition equipment but I bet if I became active in a normal audio forum, I could find some of that too.

Kelly:

I don't think anyone would disagree with your perspective on online vs B&M stores. My issue is the buyer who jobs the system by scamming a "free" listen and then buying online simply because he wants the cheapest price. That person is, to my way of thinking, stealing an otherwise valuable service. If he finds this service has value, he ought to be willing to pay for it. The "free" service isn't free at all, of course.

I buy a LOT of things online. What I don't do, however, is shop at my local mall to ensure that I know exactly what I want and then order it from an online vendor. That's just not right. If the B&M salesperson is a jerk...fine, don't buy. Short of that, the service provided by a vendor who makes the actual merchandise available for our perusal deserves the courtesy of our giving consideration to something other than the low cost vendor.

 

[HeatMiser]

And so, the story ends thusly:

I bought a pair of HD590s from etronics for $163.89, free shipping, on Tuesday. UPS says they'll be at my door this Friday.

I ordered these phones from the comfort of my home, my decision based in large part on the scattered reviews of the folks on this forum, but also on the Sennheiser reputation.

I'm going to go to my local B&M stereo store for my next receiver and SACD player, but there's no way I'm going to go anywhere else but the Web for accessories like 'phones and cables. Silly not to price that stuff out if you can.

 

[ooheadsoo]

I was going to reply to Zeplin but I decided not to.

 

[williamgoody]

Ok I will then.

Quote:

Yes but that's not what the customer wants to hear. Anything that the sales person assumes can be wrong, right? So this is why I say, only tell them you're auditioning and listening...IF they ask! Remember, he/she does not know that I want to already get the HD600's. So I ask that sales people don't assume what they don't know. There's no written law that says I have to buy from the store I audition at.

Maybe that'a not what you want to hear, but there are a lot of people who want that service from a qualified salesperson (not from a high pressure guy). What do you mean "If they ask". That is their job, like it or not. This way they DON'T assume what they don't know. The salesperson should always ask questions to see what you need and where you're at as far as what you might be interested in buying. If you don't want to deal with this, then maybe you shouldn't be patronizing their store.

Quote:

You see, a customer could be just auditioning or they could be auditioning to buy. This is called comparing, and ahopping around. So why should the sales person have to know this? This is the whole guessing game that goes along with sales. If I, for example, wanted to compare prices between an online store and the Goodguys, then yes, I gave both stores a fair shot. You may think I didn't give them a fair shot because I didn't tell either store my agendas, but in my specific case, that isn't my goal to associate with sales reps. I want to shop by myself and there's nothing wrong with that. The store puts out their phones for people to audition, and I did just that. If they put the phones out for the sole purpose of HOPING that the customer buys that very phone they audition, then they've got the wrong intentions altogether.

I think you need to get out in the world a little bit more. Everyone auditions to buy, whether it's to buy now, or later. If you want to shop without dealing with anyone, stick with the internet (and there's nothing wrong with that).
If you're comparing prices between an online store and Goodguy's, as you say, then no, you haven't given both a fair shot because you have no idea what Goodguy's could offer you for it's price. There is no "guessing game" with sales. A salesperson asks questions so he could make the best recommendation based on what he or she knows about your situation. The phones are on display as a service to help people along with their decision making process, and yes they do believe they can sell a pair then and there or at least put themselves in a position to. Hi Fi Shops are not a library for people like you who have absolutely, positively no intention of buying from there.

 

[ooheadsoo]

Good thing williamgoody replied because I'm so tired right now, I would have just mumbled off something like, "*mumble*fish bast*mumble*"

 

[bifcake]

Quote:

Originally posted by elrod-tom I think you might be missing the point. B&M stores provide those who would like to actually LISTEN to equipment the opportunity to do so. If you take advantage of this service, you should also be willing to compensate the business owner for providing said service. That doesn't mean paying retail list price for goods that are discounted 50%+ on the net, but it does demand some satisfaction, IMHO.

If it doesn't mean paying full retail for good that are discounted on the net, what exactly does it mean? What kind of "satisfaction" or compensation would you have me pay? If the stores are unhappy with customers auditioning their equipment and then buying on line, then perhaps they should consider charging for auditions. Of course, that has its own set of consequences.

Quote:

Your analogy about window shopping is faulty...it would be more accurate if you went into the store, tried on a bunch of clothing to make sure that it fit just right, and then ordered it from an online vendor. The service that you avail yourself of - ensuring that your clothing will fit - is one of the reasons that people buy clothing in a B&M store. If you bought the same clothing over the net, you MIGHT end up returning something that didn't fit, or find that you received slightly damaged goods, or maybe the colors didn't look quite the same as it did in the catalog, or maybe it looked like a quality garment in the catalog, and was a cheap piece of crap when you received it....heard enough??

What about a slightly different analogy: You sample clothes at B&M store A and buy at B&M store B. What about price shopping? Is that ok? I think as consumers, it's our perrogative to shop around and get the best price.


Quote:

The buyer who shops at a physical store location, and then buys from www.cheapassedelectronics.com, is pimping the store owner out of the compensation that he deserves for providing a service. This buyer is scamming the system....and if enough people do it, we will be at the mercy of lowest-price online retailer. The day that happens...just TRY to return something. I dare you!!

This also falls under the "shopping around" scenario I outlined above. I think you're criminalizing store browsing. Browsing is almost as old as prostitution. People have browsed stores for ages, they look at the stuff, they touch it, and sometimes they move on. I really see nothing wrong with it.

 

[Nisbeth]

Quote:

If they put the phones out for the sole purpose of HOPING that the customer buys that very phone they audition, then they've got the wrong intentions altogether.

Let me guess...Do you go to work because you're basically a nice guy who wants to help out your employer, who has this problem getting all the things done all by himself (sob sob)....or do you go to work because you want to make money so you can buy stereos gear/headphones/food/a dog/a girlfriend/insertwhateveryoulikehere etc.

Of course, the good thing about online shopping is that you don't actually have to talk to *gasp* real people

/U.

 

[tooler]

You got to determine exactly what headphones you wanted and only had to pay 15% more? Some of you guys need to get out more.

 

[williamgoody]

Quote:

What about a slightly different analogy: You sample clothes at B&M store A and buy at B&M store B. What about price shopping? Is that ok? I think as consumers, it's our perrogative to shop around and get the best price.

Still not a viable analogy. Store A and Store B are in competition with each other and would probably be similiarly priced, if their catering to the same audience (Macy's and Bloomingdales's, not Macy's and Walmart). Most Hi Fi shops are not in competition with a lot of the internet sites out there, at least those who have an operation I've outlined above. If you want to truly price shop, at least compare apples with apples. Any Hi Fi shop worth it's weight, for it's price, would give you more than you could get with a lot of the internet sites out there.

Quote:

This also falls under the "shopping around" scenario I outlined above. I think you're criminalizing store browsing. Browsing is almost as old as prostitution. People have browsed stores for ages, they look at the stuff, they touch it, and sometimes they move on. I really see nothing wrong with it.

No it's not. Again you're not comparing apples with apples. You're right, nothing wrong with browsing, but saying your "price shopping between B & M stores and the internet" is a joke, for reasons described above.

A couple of years ago I managed a chocolate shop where we gave out samples to give people an idea of what we had. And once we had this woman come in constantly for her "daily sample". After a week I cut her off ,and she never came back. She was being a leetch, plain and simple. Her actions aren't fair to those who do come in to sample with at least an open opinion to buying. I would dare to say a comparison could be made somewhat with this story to some of the actions discussed here.

And again I stress, If you absolutely, positively, without a shadow of a doubt, are not open minded to possibly buying something from a Hi Fi shop, now or in the future, it's my position that you really have no business auditioning gear at said store. Of course this is all dependent on the service you get. If the service really is ****ty, then they don't derserve your business in the first place.