[deadlylover]

 
Quote:

Better sound reproduction enhances my enjoyment of the music. I know othes who have listened to my kit, felt the same way and gone out and bought better stuff. Neither I nor they have forgotten what music is all about and I also think a lot of audiophiles spout a lot of drivel.
 
I have a TV, a basic one with no added speakers or anything. I enjoy my films. I know of others with mega AV systems to watch their films on. I a not bothered by the additional enhancements an AV set up brings, they are.
 
Both camps should be able to exist without thinking bad of the other.
 

If better sound reproduction enhances the enjoyment of your music, do you think it's possible that perhaps you no longer seek enjoyment from the music, but rather your equipment's reproduction of what was in the recording?
After all, if you haven't forgotten what music was all about, such pathetic things like the poor quality or poor reproduction of sounds would certainly not get in the way or affect your enjoyment at all.

You, like many here on Head-Fi, listen to sounds, sounds reproduced by our high-end audio equipment. I know, it's sounds like a very harsh accusation isn't it? (it's not, I don't intend it to sound that way, and this is certainly not supposed to be an attack on you Prog Rock Man, we cool right? I loveed your thread in Sound Science)
"That's bullocks deadlylover, I threw all my hard earned money down on this equipment for the music!" No we didn't, remember the first time you donned a pair of good headphones? It was an exhilarating experience to say the least, we didn't know that music could behold such wonderful sounds, it's ridiculously addicting. That is precisely the moment when you realise, "I want more of this, off to google I go!", and over time, you start to become corrupt, unintentionally of course (and the wallet seems lighter now, surely). Why have we become corrupt? Simple, because now, you listen to sound, and my god do we want this sound to sound great!

We go to great lengths to improve our enjoyment of this sound, we build amps, we mod headphones, we build scary looking rooms for our speakers, we experiment with cables, tweaks, we try everything under the moon. Whether or not these things make a difference to sound is absolutely irrelevant, but because we have put such effort in improving the reproduction of sound, we enjoy it nonetheless, and rightfully so! Our perception of music has simply changed, we view music as simply a collection of sounds, it's unquestionably natural for us to now think this way, because after all, we have just discovered that 'sound' makes up music, doesn't it?

Whichever way you think about it, it seems that 'sound', for some bizarre reason, get's in the way of our enjoyment of music.
Why is that though? Why does the particular reproduction of sound dictate the level of enjoyment we now get from music?
It was not too long ago when we didn't even notice 'sound' existed!, We were all happily enjoying our tunes, on whatever basic gear we had at the time that reproduced 'music'.

When I switch between my iBuds and my O2's, I still get a smile on my face when listening to whatever my FOTM is at the time. Didn't I just enjoy the music the same amount, despite the vastly different reproductions of sound?
How about everyone else, if you were to step back to whatever basic gear you have (say, laptop speakers or even the television), would you still smile upon hearing the most favourite of your tunes?
Some here will answer no, very few will answer yes, and the rest will answer yes, but perhaps not smile as widely, because you'd enjoy it more on your better gear. Except for the very few, why do you feel that way? Because a while back, you've smiled just the same. It looks like that you no longer listen to music then, what a shame isn't it?, to have forgotten what had originally made you happy in the first place.
For many of us, 'sound' has become somewhat a blessing and a curse, it brings a whole new separate dimension to the music we listen to, but you may be forever doomed with the inability to look past 'sound', and as a consequence, you have unfortunately forgotten about what music really was. And the worst thing about it, is that you may never be able to overlook sound, you may never be able to return to the old days when you just 'listened to music'.
It's because it feels so 'right', that you never question sound's existence in itself, because as you know, you are in this hobby because you are truly passionate about sound, and the music of course, because to you, sound has become the music. You enjoy listening to music because it gives you the sounds that you enjoy listening to.

There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG with enjoying or being passionate about good sound, that's why most of us are here right?
And it's precisely that which drives great people to design wicked sick amps/headphones/whatever, and it's awesome seeing the boundaries being pushed, and seeing the impossible suddenly become possible.

But to associate 'sound' with music is simply absurd to me. Music is somewhat personal because it's mainly up to individual interpretation, so it's normal to feel very attached to it. And because of a lack realisation of the divide between sound and music, due to some kind of distortion in our perspectives, we sometimes see that a simple and harmless 'differing opinion' of a piece of audio equipment is obviously deserving of replies containing STORMY CATACLYSMS OF HATE, RAGE AND BASHING, AND THE DECISION TO THEN 'GO TO TOWN' ON THE POOR PERSONS OTHER EQUIPMENT, OR EVEN WORSE, THEIR HEARING ABILITIES, OR EVEN WORSE THAN THAT, THEIR BLOODY MUSICAL PREFERENCES!
Ahhh, it's nice being audiophiles(or did you guys prefer music-lovers) isn't it?. You've seen this kind of thing happen plenty of times, and while they may have a sliver of technical truth behind the attack, it's just kind of pathetic really.

I'm not telling anyone here 'how' to listen to music or anything silly like that, I'm just trying to show the perspective of the masses, as 'unenlightened' music lovers.
I'm also trying to show you guys why it's somewhat stupid to discriminate/look down on the masses or whatever, I love hearing the line "the masses don't care about music as much as we do", because in reality, perhaps you don't care as much about music as they do.
I'm just trying to poke everybody's ego's so they can become more open minded about why they got into this hobby, and less attached to their pieces of equipment, so that perhaps we can come to a better understanding. Ahh what the hell am I doing, it's more fun to bash other peoples preferences and experiences rather than accept the fact that we've gotten lost while on this journey, right?

 

[wind016]

 
Quote:

I always laugh when I see a comment like "This piece of gear is neutral, and neutral is best, because we all know, neutral let's us hear what the artist truly intended". Uhh I dunno bro, I don't think this girl truly intended to give me a flippin' headache listening to this bright recording. You then get the same guys who say "It's cool yo, we deal with it, since it's what's present in the recording, and the recording is like the holy bible ya know, bow down to the recording". Ahhhhaaaa you silly masochists =P, I'm just joking by the way.
 

Agreed. When one reputable Head-fier reviews a headphone and says it's neutral, then other Head-fiers repeat the same. Well that Head-fier probably completely desensitized himself to treble from listening to music too loudly or too often. What do we do when we analyze the technical capability of a headphone? We listen loud. When a reviewer says he took 10 hours to review a headphone, the headphone is probably brighter than he's reporting. Some people consider certain headphones as versatile and neutral. When I hear it, I thought it was either a joke or some Head-fiers have some serious hearing loss. Neutral isn't supposed to sound as sterile, bright, and lacking-of-warmth as much as possible.
 
Personally, I consider the Stax O2 more balanced than any of the dynamic headphones being touted as neutral.

 

[Thommohawk]

Quote:

Better sound reproduction enhances my enjoyment of the music. I know othes who have listened to my kit, felt the same way and gone out and bought better stuff. Neither I nor they have forgotten what music is all about and I also think a lot of audiophiles spout a lot of drivel.
 
I have a TV, a basic one with no added speakers or anything. I enjoy my films. I know of others with mega AV systems to watch their films on. I a not bothered by the additional enhancements an AV set up brings, they are.
 
Both camps should be able to exist without thinking bad of the other.
 

 
Much like how there should be world peace in today's apparently civilized society....it won't ever happen though because people are a narcissistic breed. Ego driven. Biased to the tenth degree generally. And that's why people don't stay out of other's business and feel the need to downplay/promote things based on their own purchases or experiences. Nothing wrong with that it's just the way it is. Then there's the idiot trolls that need to feel self important and crave attention....and they'll post things specifically for the reactions. But yeah there's immediate conflict between the ones who'll pay for better audio quality etc and those who won't for obvious reasons. Shouldn't be the case, but it is because we as a species can't stay out of anyone else's business without picking on them......at the risk of contradicting myself, I personally don't care what anyone else buys or believes in - to me it's all good so long as you don't f*ck with me over it. And that's the stance I take.
 

 

[wind016]

 
Quote:

 
Much like how there should be world peace in today's apparently civilized society....it won't ever happen though because people are a narcissistic breed. Ego driven. Biased to the tenth degree generally. And that's why people don't stay out of other's business and feel the need to downplay/promote things based on their own purchases or experiences. Nothing wrong with that it's just the way it is. Then there's the idiot trolls that need to feel self important and crave attention....and they'll post things specifically for the reactions. But yeah there's immediate conflict between the ones who'll pay for better audio quality etc and those who won't for obvious reasons. Shouldn't be the case, but it is because we as a species can't stay out of anyone else's business without picking on them......at the risk of contradicting myself, I personally don't care what anyone else buys or believes in - to me it's all good so long as you don't f*ck with me over it. And that's the stance I take.
 

You kind of have a negative view of everyone huh? There needs to be as much views as possible on Head-fi whether negative or positive. Head-fi has a tendency to bury criticisms of headphones as far down as possible in case we hurt hardcore fanboy feelings and they go into defense mode. You can easily find comments saying certain headphones are just perfect and if you don't like 'em, you're the one with the problem.
 

 

[bcasey25raptor]

 
Personally skullcandy got me here in the long run. (yes i know they sound bad, but at the time they were amazing) everyone told me it was the best so i bought some. i was satisfied until they broke and i wanted something with equal sound quality but more durable so i bought Sony. then i went up the latter because i wasn't satisfied with my cheap Sony's and bought some pioneer SE m390. i thought i was in audio bliss until i got $150 for Xmas. not knowing what to buy i thought i would go buy some beats because everyone says they were good. so i read on line reviews and everyone was saying they were breaking. i figured that headphones that expensive shouldn't break so easily so i did some research and bought some shure srh750dj(now srh840). those had amazing reviews but after i bought them i felt they were cheaply built. so i returned them for the shure srh840. my original intent has always been sound quality but i had no idea what to expect. my belief of what good quality should sound like was cloudy. i didn't know the recording actually mattered. or that the source mattered. i figured that my laptop or ipod should be able to run everything. i am only slowly understanding this mess i got into and it involves to much research, and knowledge for the average consumer who wants something convenient. the average person wants to buy headphones and not think about things like FLAC or THE SOURCE, they want something that will run from an ipod and that is portable. (i hate to admit it but i used to always feel that the bigger the headphone driver the better the quality). also one thing to keep in mind about the average person. they don't want to look like a geek, dork, nerd, or out of place. they usually want to fit in (I'm generally talking about teenagers). so trying to convince them to buy better might be a frivolous practice. its to much for their little minds to understand. if you ask the average person what bass is how would they respond? probably say something like "the thump noise you hear when listening to music". that's my explanation on this matter. even i don't want to think about having flac this or mp3 that. i just want headphones that play my music and play it well.

 

[Brooko]

Interesting thread.  
 
Personally I think that the one of the reasons 'the masses' don't spend more (or try to capture) better audio quality - is that they don't hold it at the same level of importance that I personally do.  And I've spent far more on my music than I have on my hardware.  I love music.  I spend quality time each day listening - and I listen to everything from classical and jazz to grunge and hard rock.  My wife also 'likes' listening to music.  She'll listen in the car.  And she might put some on when she's at home by herself.  But she doesn't go out of her way to listen to it each day.  She enjoys it - but it's just not that important.  Hence - while she listens to my gear - she doesn't have the same level of interest / enjoyment.  
 
My kids (8 & 10) on the other hand both have a little Sony 2 Gb DAP each - and some light-weight Sony MDR-110 headphones.  I gave them my old Senn eh250's - which they have to share.  Guess which they prefer - the Senns - because they enjoy the music more.  It sounds better.  The two of them will often sit and read for an hour - and on go the headphones (we make sure the volume is low btw).  And if they get the chance to use my AT's or Shures - the Senns have no chance.
 
Which brings me to the point that deadlylover raised.  I'm firmly in ProgRockMan's camp on this one.  My search for better equipment to enjoy my music on is because I don't just like it - I love it.  I have a passion for it.  Believe me - if I could get the same level of enjoyment out of $10 MDR-110's, I'm there.  The problem is, I can't.  And don't try and suggest that I'm listening to sound rather than the music.  I don't buy sound.  I don't simply enjoy sound.  Otherwise I'd only listen to the most technically correct music.  I listen to the music I enjoy.  Better gear helps me elevate that enjoyment.  Do I get more enjoyment from my music now than I used to - even 12 months ago - heck yes!
 
And if you want proof - look at my kids.  They have zero interest in 'sound'.  They aren't old enough to know a lot of the differences.  But the one thing they do know is that their music sounds better with Dad's headphones.  That's why they use them when they are allowed to.  Because they enjoy THE MUSIC more.  Next time I'm in the US I already have a request from them for their own headphones (better ones).  They know what they like - and they (like me) are listening to the music - not the gear.

 

[Thommohawk]

Quote:

 

You kind of have a negative view of everyone huh? There needs to be as much views as possible on Head-fi whether negative or positive. Head-fi has a tendency to bury criticisms of headphones as far down as possible in case we hurt hardcore fanboy feelings and they go into defense mode. You can easily find comments saying certain headphones are just perfect and if you don't like 'em, you're the one with the problem.
 

 
No not a negative view of everyone, just idiots. Genuine people I'm cool with. I just don't have much tolerance for bs tactics lol. I agree that opinions either way are needed, especially here - but the point I was making there was how in life people can be so biased as in how it's always different when the shoe is on the other foot. It's so hypocritical and that's the attitude that I cannot stand. Not so much to do with Head-fi, more a statement about a lot of the people I know in the real, and the internet in general especially. But not everyone on either count.
 
 

 

[swbf2cheater]

Definitely is overlooked.  
 
Some of my family members look at my like im insane for paying a few hundred bucks for a set of headphones.  However, my reply to that is "how much did you just spend on your new LED tv?'   Most of the time they can't reply.  I pay $ for certain aspects of audio found inside headphones just like people spend a few thousand for a new TV with better imaging, better colors or a bigger screen.  Same thing applies to audio.  Most people dont get it.  My dad definitely doesn't get it but my grandma sure does heh.  It all depends on the ears and how open your brain is to audio, how your ears first pick things up.  
 
I've come to realize that we audiophiles pick up on things other people just don't want to hear.  Certain aspects of audio like separation, the size of the soundstage, the depth, the overall dynamics, cello here, violins over there a bit, ect ect.  Normal people just dont hear that stuff unless it is explained to them.  You need to sit them down and force them to hear it or else they simply won't.

 

[mongol]

Quote:

I was speaking to a few people and they all say that sound quality doesn't matter as long as the music is enjoyable. To be entirely honest I am starting to agree with them.

 
Even at a live concert?  Or at a movie theater, would crappy sound be ok as long as the movie is good?
 
I was working late last night and popped Lateralus into my laptop, playing from the laptop speakers (had SE425s with me but was in a rush to finish).  It was ok for a few songs,but after a while it just became too hard to listen to, and I shut it off - the music, the feeling, the emotion was just not the same without decent sound.
 
I think most listen to their music casually as background noise, as opposed to just listening, so sound isn't a major concern for them.

 

[mongol]

Quote:
 


Quote:

Finally someone who gets it. I highly agree. Shouldn't it be for the music and not the gear. I can be just as satisfied (sometimes more satisfied) with cheap headphones/speakers.
 
 

 
Should be both.  It doesn't have to be one or the other.
 

 

[mongol]

Picture quality on a tv doesn't matter either then?
 
Music is sound, so how can the two not be associated?  We don't just listen for the emotion or feeling.  A poor vocalist with a good sound system gets booed off the stage, regardless of what feeling or emotion they are trying to convey.  They sound bad.
 
Quote:

If better sound reproduction enhances the enjoyment of your music, do you think it's possible that perhaps you no longer seek enjoyment from the music, but rather your equipment's reproduction of what was in the recording?
After all, if you haven't forgotten what music was all about, such pathetic things like the poor quality or poor reproduction of sounds would certainly not get in the way or affect your enjoyment at all...

But to associate 'sound' with music is simply absurd to me. Music is somewhat personal because it's mainly up to individual interpretation, so it's normal to feel very attached to it

 

[Prog Rock Man]

Quote:

 

If better sound reproduction enhances the enjoyment of your music, do you think it's possible that perhaps you no longer seek enjoyment from the music, but rather your equipment's reproduction of what was in the recording?
After all, if you haven't forgotten what music was all about, such pathetic things like the poor quality or poor reproduction of sounds would certainly not get in the way or affect your enjoyment at all.

You, like many here on Head-Fi, listen to sounds, sounds reproduced by our high-end audio equipment. I know, it's sounds like a very harsh accusation isn't it? (it's not, I don't intend it to sound that way, and this is certainly not supposed to be an attack on you Prog Rock Man, we cool right? I loveed your thread in Sound Science)
"That's bullocks deadlylover, I threw all my hard earned money down on this equipment for the music!" No we didn't, remember the first time you donned a pair of good headphones? It was an exhilarating experience to say the least, we didn't know that music could behold such wonderful sounds, it's ridiculously addicting. That is precisely the moment when you realise, "I want more of this, off to google I go!", and over time, you start to become corrupt, unintentionally of course (and the wallet seems lighter now, surely). Why have we become corrupt? Simple, because now, you listen to sound, and my god do we want this sound to sound great!

We go to great lengths to improve our enjoyment of this sound, we build amps, we mod headphones, we build scary looking rooms for our speakers, we experiment with cables, tweaks, we try everything under the moon. Whether or not these things make a difference to sound is absolutely irrelevant, but because we have put such effort in improving the reproduction of sound, we enjoy it nonetheless, and rightfully so! Our perception of music has simply changed, we view music as simply a collection of sounds, it's unquestionably natural for us to now think this way, because after all, we have just discovered that 'sound' makes up music, doesn't it?

Whichever way you think about it, it seems that 'sound', for some bizarre reason, get's in the way of our enjoyment of music.
Why is that though? Why does the particular reproduction of sound dictate the level of enjoyment we now get from music?
It was not too long ago when we didn't even notice 'sound' existed!, We were all happily enjoying our tunes, on whatever basic gear we had at the time that reproduced 'music'.

When I switch between my iBuds and my O2's, I still get a smile on my face when listening to whatever my FOTM is at the time. Didn't I just enjoy the music the same amount, despite the vastly different reproductions of sound?
How about everyone else, if you were to step back to whatever basic gear you have (say, laptop speakers or even the television), would you still smile upon hearing the most favourite of your tunes?
Some here will answer no, very few will answer yes, and the rest will answer yes, but perhaps not smile as widely, because you'd enjoy it more on your better gear. Except for the very few, why do you feel that way? Because a while back, you've smiled just the same. It looks like that you no longer listen to music then, what a shame isn't it?, to have forgotten what had originally made you happy in the first place.
For many of us, 'sound' has become somewhat a blessing and a curse, it brings a whole new separate dimension to the music we listen to, but you may be forever doomed with the inability to look past 'sound', and as a consequence, you have unfortunately forgotten about what music really was. And the worst thing about it, is that you may never be able to overlook sound, you may never be able to return to the old days when you just 'listened to music'.
It's because it feels so 'right', that you never question sound's existence in itself, because as you know, you are in this hobby because you are truly passionate about sound, and the music of course, because to you, sound has become the music. You enjoy listening to music because it gives you the sounds that you enjoy listening to.

There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG with enjoying or being passionate about good sound, that's why most of us are here right?
And it's precisely that which drives great people to design wicked sick amps/headphones/whatever, and it's awesome seeing the boundaries being pushed, and seeing the impossible suddenly become possible.

But to associate 'sound' with music is simply absurd to me. Music is somewhat personal because it's mainly up to individual interpretation, so it's normal to feel very attached to it. And because of a lack realisation of the divide between sound and music, due to some kind of distortion in our perspectives, we sometimes see that a simple and harmless 'differing opinion' of a piece of audio equipment is obviously deserving of replies containing STORMY CATACLYSMS OF HATE, RAGE AND BASHING, AND THE DECISION TO THEN 'GO TO TOWN' ON THE POOR PERSONS OTHER EQUIPMENT, OR EVEN WORSE, THEIR HEARING ABILITIES, OR EVEN WORSE THAN THAT, THEIR BLOODY MUSICAL PREFERENCES!
Ahhh, it's nice being audiophiles(or did you guys prefer music-lovers) isn't it?. You've seen this kind of thing happen plenty of times, and while they may have a sliver of technical truth behind the attack, it's just kind of pathetic really.

I'm not telling anyone here 'how' to listen to music or anything silly like that, I'm just trying to show the perspective of the masses, as 'unenlightened' music lovers.
I'm also trying to show you guys why it's somewhat stupid to discriminate/look down on the masses or whatever, I love hearing the line "the masses don't care about music as much as we do", because in reality, perhaps you don't care as much about music as they do.
I'm just trying to poke everybody's ego's so they can become more open minded about why they got into this hobby, and less attached to their pieces of equipment, so that perhaps we can come to a better understanding. Ahh what the hell am I doing, it's more fun to bash other peoples preferences and experiences rather than accept the fact that we've gotten lost while on this journey, right?

Firstly, we are cool

 
I am an audiophile in that the quality of the reproduction of the sound is important to me. I am presently listening to The Pineapple Thief and the track 'Different World'. I have listened to that track loads of times ( and live once) and this time I was marveling at the kick drum and how well it sounds on my closed backed AKG K271 MkIIs. But, I also love the music as I still get goosebumps especially as the track goes into it's instrumental phrase about 3/4 of the way through. So I am also a music lover.
 
Ultimately I am a failed audiophile as I rarely advise on what kit to buy and love to poke holes in audiophile claims and myths. But I am a music lover.......
 
The Indie Music Appreciation Thread
 
The Post Rock Music Appreciation Thread
 
The Modern Prog Rock Appreciation Thread
 
The Nordic Prog Rock Appreciation Thread
 
...of which I am very proud and are there to recommending music to the masses!
 

 

[Thommohawk]

Quote:

Definitely is overlooked.  
 
Some of my family members look at my like im insane for paying a few hundred bucks for a set of headphones.  However, my reply to that is "how much did you just spend on your new LED tv?'   Most of the time they can't reply.  I pay $ for certain aspects of audio found inside headphones just like people spend a few thousand for a new TV with better imaging, better colors or a bigger screen.  Same thing applies to audio.  Most people dont get it.  My dad definitely doesn't get it but my grandma sure does heh.  It all depends on the ears and how open your brain is to audio, how your ears first pick things up.  
 
I've come to realize that we audiophiles pick up on things other people just don't want to hear.  Certain aspects of audio like separation, the size of the soundstage, the depth, the overall dynamics, cello here, violins over there a bit, ect ect.  Normal people just dont hear that stuff unless it is explained to them.  You need to sit them down and force them to hear it or else they simply won't.

Exactly. This is the truth. I didn't know about or care for instrument separation and soundstage until I'd heard the difference between the many cheaper headphones that don't have this vs a more expensive headphone which does have it. The difference in audio quality - and thus enjoyment of music being played - is truly night & day. This is the sticky point that most people who aren't audiophiles not only miss but won't even realize until they hear it for themselves over a period of time. 
 
Also it's true that people think it's bad to spend hundreds on headphones or complete audio rigs, yet it's okay to spend hundreds on a big HDTV ? And yet you are missing on at least half of the cinematic enjoyment aspects of having a HDTV if you do not have a quality audio rig to go alongside it.....and that's completely seperate from the sheer enjoyment from music alone.....
 
One thing I am finding though, is a few of these people will go straight from tv audio to gaming headsets for example and be floored at the difference....yet the gaming headsets aren't very good. But they are better than tv audio. 
 
The way I see it though, is once you've bought your headphones or rig, the outlay is done and dusted and yet you've got the product to enjoy forevermore and quality headphones really do transport you into another world when you listen to music through them. Which is a couple of steps above simply listening to a great song in my view.

 

[Spareribs]

Most people in general are not into details so something of high quality is generally not fully appreciated.

I think there are positives and negatives in being aware of high quality things.

The positive side is obvious as high quality is something that is better and when we understand and like it, it’s a good feeling.

The negative side of high quality appreciation is that it can raise your expectations and set you up for potential disappointments.

Perhaps the key to happiness is not knowing what’s higher quality. Hence, ignorance is bliss- as the old saying goes.

 

[Rooster81]

Posting before I read any other replies so as not to influence:

1) Convenience
2) Money
3) Most people can't tell the difference because gear and / or the listening environment
4) Quality of music production. Had a friend, who is a musician, tell me just the other day that he used to care about music quality more. But the most of the music he listens to now is so bassy that he can't tell the difference.