[Gu Sensei]

I think the real interesting part of this so-called debate is encapsulated in the first part of this thread's title. The lack of acceptance/adequate weighing of evidence that currently exists is astounding to me. Here are two points that are undeniable:
 
1. The properties being attributed to cables deviate so far away from the known demonstrable properties of the physical universe that they can be considered improbable to a level that for practical purposes means impossible.
 
2. The personal experience of repeatably hearing a clear, consistent difference in cables when such a difference does not actually exist is easily explained by simple, everyday psychological processes that are in play every moment of our conscious lives.
 
To the extent that facts can exist, the above two points are facts.

 

[K.I. Unlimited]

Just because a difference can't be measured doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
 
It simply means the scientific method, which is severely limited in its own scope, does not have a proven method to measure the 'differences' cables produce in sound.
 
With given blind tests, there must be people with the variable to be tested, and a placebo for more consistency. If people find the placebo/stock to have no significant differences, or even found to be better than better wires, then...
 
Until the day comes somebody writes a research paper or journal for all this silliness, I'll stick to my own business regarding cables.

 

[Meliphcient]

Quote:

Just because a difference can't be measured doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
 
Actually, thats exactly what it means.
 
With given blind tests, there must be people with the variable to be tested, and a placebo for more consistency. If people find the placebo/stock to have no significant differences, or even found to be better than better wires, then...
 
You clearly haven't done much reading here. There ARE tests where people have found profound differences between a cable and itself.

Here are Dan's views on the subject
 

 

[Kees]

Quote:

Here are Dan's views on the subject
 

If something is not proven it means only that. It does NOT mean it does not exist.
Your error is a logical error most cable-sceptics make, which makes a debate rather pointless.

 

[Meliphcient]

Absence of proof is not proof of absence? Hello!
Why is it that pro-cablers are so insistent that there is a difference, yet nobody has gone forward to claim Mr Randi's prize? It would appear we have several possible contenders here.
I'd also like to point out that many people claim there are aliens, and several different gods. There's more evidence (and believers) for these than there is for cable differences. Food for though.

 

[rusitnpiece]

So what part of a cable gives you a bigger Sound-stage then? The differences in cables CAN be measured. Although you cant hide away from the fact that no measurements have ever shown differences that appear in the audible spectrum. That is what is important. Someone please prove me wrong. If I lived in America I would get to a meet. The problem is at this distance it is a bit of a trek.

 

[kingtz]

Quote:

If something is not proven it means only that. It does NOT mean it does not exist.
 

I'd like you to meet Russell's Teapot:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot

 

[sokolov91]

Quote:

If something is not proven it means only that. It does NOT mean it does not exist.
Your error is a logical error most cable-sceptics make, which makes a debate rather pointless.

The whole reason the entire debate exists is because of lack of logic and reasoning on the"pro cable side" and the zeal of the "anti-cable" side to try and talk some sense into them. Then the "pro-cable" side gets their panties in a bunch, and speak of pseudo science, to try an counter the real science being used by the "anti-cable" side. Then, once all evidence stacks up on one side, the "pro-cable" side plays the "I don't care I still hear it" card, or the "science is not yet advanced enough to detect what my (usually aging) ears can", or similar self defeating arguments.
 
The whole tension is from trying to reason with people who really don't want to reason in the first place, they just want to be right.
 
There are many facts that would explain how it makes perfect sense that you will hear what you want. The fact we don't work with raw input data. The fact we are emotional beings. The placebo effect. The fact no one has ever passed a DBT (which is extremely significant). The fact that nothing, in any field of science, would come close to supporting the claims of cable believers.
 
This staggering amount of counter evidence would lead anyone to believe there is no such thing as cables making a difference. Except for those who don't care for science or facts in the first place.
 
This is why cable believers are seen as a sort of religious cult, and get the same treatment. The world is tired of having to deal with misinformation and information as if they were interchangeable. This is why people get upset, and why people seek to rid the world of such things.
 
There is no proof that unicorns do not exist. There is no proof that Santa Clause does not exist. There is no proof that I am not Lada Gaga typing to you right now. There is no proof that cables make a difference in audio. Does it mean none of these things exist? No, but until there is some sort of an "ultimatum", it means that with all reasoning to a logical extent, it is with great likelyhood and certainty we can believe they don't.
 
So basically, this entire thread is the pot calling the kettle black, except one of them has tons of evidence and support, while the other has nothing other than their dignity at stake.

 

[Black Stuart]

I get sucked into a cable thread about every two years, sadly each time I review one of these threads I get a little depressed because  the followers of the Religion of Science and those of  religions and politics are so strikingly similar.
 
They are always strident and dictatorial. The obsession with tests is just that an obsession and as in religion and politics the acolytes are terrified of personal responsibility, they need to hide behind a dogma or belief system, projecting their mentality onto those they see as adversories. Hence they always refer to those who hear differences in cables as believers, when in reality they are describing themselves.Some are so dogmatic it is a rather sad joke. Let me state categorically that I find it immensly insulting to be described as a believer.
 
If the RoS crowd were actually being scientific they would present their argument from fundamentals, which they never do. To be truly scientific the RoS crowd should first describe thoroughly 2 very important points (1) how an electrically generated musical signal (EGMS) presents itself in space-time and (2) how that signal travels from point of entry to point of departure via the i/c - I have never ever seen these two basic and  hugely important points covered by any RoS follower.
 
Their argument is that - all cables sound the same - that means that irrespective of conductor material, dialectric material or design the EGMS will be conducted exactly the same - that is what they are saying. So, an EGMS will travel at exactly the same speed and in exactly the same way via bog standard industrial copper containing hundreds of thousands of crystals or in the case of OCC only one crystal - prove it. The same goes for silver/aluminium/s/plated copper/s/plated OFC/s/plated OFHC etc. etc. in each case prove it.
 
And then we come to dialectrics - again whatever the dialectric material or structure - it will all sound the same. So a conductor that is wrapped in Teflon/Kapton/polyethelene etc will sound the same. Or, if the conductor is surrounded by air, or mainly air  and it will sound the same - prove it.
 
So, on planet Earth which is where I live, materials will behave exactly the same in any application where the basics are identical ie. atmospheric pressure/humidity etc. In case there is any doubt I mean that copper/silver/aluminium/carbon etc will exhibit exactly the same charactersistics in identical physical envronments - yes? if not I require an explicit scientific basis for any and all retorts.
 
So, let's take the RoS crowds argument further - using any amplifier design, build identical amp circuits using exactly the same value/voltage  components. Build the first using the cheapest components and graduate upto increasingly better materials, including better hook-up wire - let's say 5 amps.
 
Now according to the RoS crowd they will all sound the same - this is pure Gold Plated  B/S but this is what the RoS crowd would have you believe. The cheapest rip-off copy made in China cap will sound the same as a VH Teflon/Russian Teflon cap - I say Gold Plated B/S _ I could include Mundorff Silver, Silver/Gold etc. etc.
 
I use a US made cap in abundance - ERSE they are superb caps, very cheap and they are way,way better than ie. Solen but hey they can't sound better they must sound the same, if they are the rated at the same voltage/value  - so say the RoS crowd. Or are they saying that the same materials obey different fundamental scientific laws on the same planet?
 
According to the RoS crowd all resistors must sound the same if they have the same rating - more Gold Plated B/S. Try the naked Vishay S102s and compare to anything else available - all other resistors are coloured or introduce warmth/fuzziness, they are in a different galaxy - hey but this can't be - everything sounds the same - so goes the blind mantra of the RoS crowd.
 
I have spent over 4 years designing and redesigning i/cs. I have used different gauge/material/number of  conductors and dialectrics, I have used different designs and guess what they all sounded different but the biggest shock for me was when I replicated the exact same design/materials for chassis wiring as I use for i/cs and that was for me a wonderful shock. A friend emailed me a blurb from Nordost about the importance of using the same wire/design throughout your system - Nordost was right.
 
Finally let's hear from the RoS crowd on these points -  how many of you ACTUALLY have built your own i/cs - what materials did you use and what designs did you use. For those talking only from theory you should know that the only difference between untried theories and a fart is that one smells and the other does'nt.
 
Very importantly how many of the RoS have had a hearing test.
 
I have CDs that I bought in the 80's and I thought that they were digital crap but you know what as my system evolved I had to change my mind. I now have a  very revealing h/amp, my own design i/cs but using the same bog standard CDP - a Marantz 63 KI mk11 - I have had this CDP for over 14 years. As my h/amp improved along with the design of my i/cs more and more detail and sheer musical info appeared. I strive for something I once thought of as boring - neutrality. All this means is that the more neutral a component is, the more detail and sheer guts of the music shines through. But hey this cannot be since any component of the same value/voltage must sound the same - is'nt that right RoS crowd.
 
So, RoS crowd you must now prove conclusively that as all cables sound the same, so must all caps/resistors/Txs/o/put Txs etc of the same value/voltage. Or that materials will react/perform differently on the same planet - I am referring specifically to Planet Earth and no other - b/s, waffling, personal are prohibited - only clear substantiated scientific answers are acceptable

 

[sokolov91]

Quote:

I get sucked into a cable thread about every two years, sadly each time I review one of these threads I get a little depressed because  the followers of the Religion of Science and those of  religions and politics are so strikingly similar.
 
They are always strident and dictatorial. The obsession with tests is just that an obsession and as in religion and politics the acolytes are terrified of personal responsibility, they need to hide behind a dogma or belief system, projecting their mentality onto those they see as adversories. Hence they always refer to those who hear differences in cables as believers, when in reality they are describing themselves.Some are so dogmatic it is a rather sad joke. Let me state categorically that I find it immensly insulting to be described as a believer.
 
If the RoS crowd were actually being scientific they would present their argument from fundamentals, which they never do. To be truly scientific the RoS crowd should first describe thoroughly 2 very important points (1) how an electrically generated musical signal (EGMS) presents itself in space-time and (2) how that signal travels from point of entry to point of departure via the i/c - I have never ever seen these two basic and  hugely important points covered by any RoS follower.
 
Their argument is that - all cables sound the same - that means that irrespective of conductor material, dialectric material or design the EGMS will be conducted exactly the same - that is what they are saying. So, an EGMS will travel at exactly the same speed and in exactly the same way via bog standard industrial copper containing hundreds of thousands of crystals or in the case of OCC only one crystal - prove it. The same goes for silver/aluminium/s/plated copper/s/plated OFC/s/plated OFHC etc. etc. in each case prove it.
 
And then we come to dialectrics - again whatever the dialectric material or structure - it will all sound the same. So a conductor that is wrapped in Teflon/Kapton/polyethelene etc will sound the same. Or, if the conductor is surrounded by air, or mainly air  and it will sound the same - prove it.
 
So, on planet Earth which is where I live, materials will behave exactly the same in any application where the basics are identical ie. atmospheric pressure/humidity etc. In case there is any doubt I mean that copper/silver/aluminium/carbon etc will exhibit exactly the same charactersistics in identical physical envronments - yes? if not I require an explicit scientific basis for any and all retorts.
 
So, let's take the RoS crowds argument further - using any amplifier design, build identical amp circuits using exactly the same value/voltage  components. Build the first using the cheapest components and graduate upto increasingly better materials, including better hook-up wire - let's say 5 amps.
 
Now according to the RoS crowd they will all sound the same - this is pure Gold Plated  B/S but this is what the RoS crowd would have you believe. The cheapest rip-off copy made in China cap will sound the same as a VH Teflon/Russian Teflon cap - I say Gold Plated B/S _ I could include Mundorff Silver, Silver/Gold etc. etc.
 
I use a US made cap in abundance - ERSE they are superb caps, very cheap and they are way,way better than ie. Solen but hey they can't sound better they must sound the same, if they are the rated at the same voltage/value  - so say the RoS crowd. Or are they saying that the same materials obey different fundamental scientific laws on the same planet?
 
According to the RoS crowd all resistors must sound the same if they have the same rating - more Gold Plated B/S. Try the naked Vishay S102s and compare to anything else available - all other resistors are coloured or introduce warmth/fuzziness, they are in a different galaxy - hey but this can't be - everything sounds the same - so goes the blind mantra of the RoS crowd.
 
I have spent over 4 years designing and redesigning i/cs. I have used different gauge/material/number of  conductors and dialectrics, I have used different designs and guess what they all sounded different but the biggest shock for me was when I replicated the exact same design/materials for chassis wiring as I use for i/cs and that was for me a wonderful shock. A friend emailed me a blurb from Nordost about the importance of using the same wire/design throughout your system - Nordost was right.
 
Finally let's hear from the RoS crowd on these points -  how many of you ACTUALLY have built your own i/cs - what materials did you use and what designs did you use. For those talking only from theory you should know that the only difference between untried theories and a fart is that one smells and the other does'nt.
 
Very importantly how many of the RoS have had a hearing test.
 
Have you seen a shrink, let alone a hearing professional? If you are hearing things that do not exist, that is a possible symptom of schizophrenia and should be dealt with asap for your personal health. Other than that, many younger members here have better hearing than you have at this point in time. You are not a dog, you are not a cat. You have the same, or worse hearing as everyone else, Mr. Almighty. 
 
I have CDs that I bought in the 80's and I thought that they were digital crap but you know what as my system evolved I had to change my mind. I now have a  very revealing h/amp, my own design i/cs but using the same bog standard CDP - a Marantz 63 KI mk11 - I have had this CDP for over 14 years. As my h/amp improved along with the design of my i/cs more and more detail and sheer musical info appeared. I strive for something I once thought of as boring - neutrality. All this means is that the more neutral a component is, the more detail and sheer guts of the music shines through. But hey this cannot be since any component of the same value/voltage must sound the same - is'nt that right RoS crowd.
 
So, RoS crowd you must now prove conclusively that as all cables sound the same, so must all caps/resistors/Txs/o/put Txs etc of the same value/voltage. Or that materials will react/perform differently on the same planet - I am referring specifically to Planet Earth and no other - b/s, waffling, personal are prohibited - only clear substantiated scientific answers are acceptable

Semantics and conjecture aside, since you know so much about amps, why is it you believe I/C to make such a difference? Even internal wiring? Regardless of how good a cap or resistor is, they sure as hell are not using the uber refined and expensive metal most people are using for their interconnects.
 
None of this can hurt the chain, but it does not mean it is making it any better, except for the vendor.
 
So, even if they did make a difference, they are such a small "improvement" in a sea of things that are less than ideal to an audiophile that it is moot.
 
Plus, the reason better resistors can make a difference is because they are made to higher standards, and have lower tolerances for error, so when you put your amp together, the voltages and everything are correct, as much as possible, instead of being slightly off every step of the way.
 
You widely shoot statements around and ask people to prove them right or wrong, and then just ignore all the data that would "prove" their point. You, on the other hand, have absolutely nothing for your argument. Your ears are not a reference when it comes to minute things like this.
 
You are asking people to prove things you do not believe in anyways, so what does it matter?
 
Even if there was an ultimatum, in years to come, that proved without a doubt that cabling made no difference to the human ear, there would be morons still thinking they could hear a difference, because that is the key part, YOU THINK. Go study a bit about the way the ear works (the science you were asking for) and then you will most likely see why it makes perfect sense none of these supposed sonic changes actually exist, on your planet.
 
The fact a human consciousness and brain is in the way of the signal is the biggest part of "the chain" you can do absolutely nothing about. You can relish in your psychological/biological shortcomings as a human, or try and surpass them, with an in depth understanding, and scientific measurements.
 
None of your personal experience is valid in arguments like this, so stop using it. Start using science, measurements, rational, logic, and testing and then we are in business. Until then, you are just more ignorant text, asking people to prove something you won't believe in anyways.
 
Do scientists use their bare eyes over a microscope? Nope. does anyone question that all they are seeing is not the final picture? Yes, because the human eye cannot process all of the information. Just like the human ear cannot process all of the information.
 
THE INFORMATION FROM THE REAL WORLD, PLANET EARTH AND OUR COLLECTIVE UNIVERSE (IN CASE IT WASN'T CLEAR)  ECLIPSES OUR SENSES IN VARIOUS WAYS, YET YOU CAN DETECT WHAT MACHINES CANNOT? 
 
Holy lord you must have good hearing, in your head that is. Your biological capacities are the same as everyone elses, more or less, and the older, the worse.
 
The only thing progressing is your level of detachment from reality.
 
 
As far as your 5 amps are considered, you would build 5 with varying degrees of premium parts 1 being bare bones, while still electrically as perfectly as possible. 5 being as "audiophile" perfect as possible and still electrically as perfect as possible.
 
Then you would run sweep and FR tests on all 5 amps, and compare all the graphs. If there was no major variation (to a human ear, so a pretty friggen major change) in FR, etc etc, then they are exactly the same amp, but one costs a ton more.
 
Not a very difficult test, but an expensive one for results that can be very accurately predicted because we have silly stuff, like science.

 

[sokolov91]

Quote:

I think the real interesting part of this so-called debate is encapsulated in the first part of this thread's title. The lack of acceptance/adequate weighing of evidence that currently exists is astounding to me. Here are two points that are undeniable:
 
1. The properties being attributed to cables deviate so far away from the known demonstrable properties of the physical universe that they can be considered improbable to a level that for practical purposes means impossible.
 
2. The personal experience of repeatably hearing a clear, consistent difference in cables when such a difference does not actually exist is easily explained by simple, everyday psychological processes that are in play every moment of our conscious lives.
 
To the extent that facts can exist, the above two points are facts.

Yeah that is the whole issue. Very good post.
 
Feudal era thinking.
 
Dismiss of what is inconvenient and internationally accepted, and demand to be respected.
 
Have non-facts be spoken about on par with actual facts etc etc.
 

 

[The Monkey]

Black Stuart, lots of typing, not much substance.

 

[Prog Rock Man]

 
Quote:

I get sucked into a cable thread about every two years, sadly each time I review one of these threads I get a little depressed because  the followers of the Religion of Science and those of  religions and politics are so strikingly similar.
 
They are always strident and dictatorial. The obsession with tests is just that an obsession and as in religion and politics the acolytes are terrified of personal responsibility, they need to hide behind a dogma or belief system, projecting their mentality onto those they see as adversories. Hence they always refer to those who hear differences in cables as believers, when in reality they are describing themselves.Some are so dogmatic it is a rather sad joke. Let me state categorically that I find it immensly insulting to be described as a believer.
 
If the RoS crowd were actually being scientific they would present their argument from fundamentals, which they never do. To be truly scientific the RoS crowd should first describe thoroughly 2 very important points (1) how an electrically generated musical signal (EGMS) presents itself in space-time and (2) how that signal travels from point of entry to point of departure via the i/c - I have never ever seen these two basic and  hugely important points covered by any RoS follower.
 
Their argument is that - all cables sound the same - that means that irrespective of conductor material, dialectric material or design the EGMS will be conducted exactly the same - that is what they are saying. So, an EGMS will travel at exactly the same speed and in exactly the same way via bog standard industrial copper containing hundreds of thousands of crystals or in the case of OCC only one crystal - prove it. The same goes for silver/aluminium/s/plated copper/s/plated OFC/s/plated OFHC etc. etc. in each case prove it.
 
And then we come to dialectrics - again whatever the dialectric material or structure - it will all sound the same. So a conductor that is wrapped in Teflon/Kapton/polyethelene etc will sound the same. Or, if the conductor is surrounded by air, or mainly air  and it will sound the same - prove it.
 
So, on planet Earth which is where I live, materials will behave exactly the same in any application where the basics are identical ie. atmospheric pressure/humidity etc. In case there is any doubt I mean that copper/silver/aluminium/carbon etc will exhibit exactly the same charactersistics in identical physical envronments - yes? if not I require an explicit scientific basis for any and all retorts.
 
So, let's take the RoS crowds argument further - using any amplifier design, build identical amp circuits using exactly the same value/voltage  components. Build the first using the cheapest components and graduate upto increasingly better materials, including better hook-up wire - let's say 5 amps.
 
Now according to the RoS crowd they will all sound the same - this is pure Gold Plated  B/S but this is what the RoS crowd would have you believe. The cheapest rip-off copy made in China cap will sound the same as a VH Teflon/Russian Teflon cap - I say Gold Plated B/S _ I could include Mundorff Silver, Silver/Gold etc. etc.
 
I use a US made cap in abundance - ERSE they are superb caps, very cheap and they are way,way better than ie. Solen but hey they can't sound better they must sound the same, if they are the rated at the same voltage/value  - so say the RoS crowd. Or are they saying that the same materials obey different fundamental scientific laws on the same planet?
 
According to the RoS crowd all resistors must sound the same if they have the same rating - more Gold Plated B/S. Try the naked Vishay S102s and compare to anything else available - all other resistors are coloured or introduce warmth/fuzziness, they are in a different galaxy - hey but this can't be - everything sounds the same - so goes the blind mantra of the RoS crowd.
 
I have spent over 4 years designing and redesigning i/cs. I have used different gauge/material/number of  conductors and dialectrics, I have used different designs and guess what they all sounded different but the biggest shock for me was when I replicated the exact same design/materials for chassis wiring as I use for i/cs and that was for me a wonderful shock. A friend emailed me a blurb from Nordost about the importance of using the same wire/design throughout your system - Nordost was right.
 
Finally let's hear from the RoS crowd on these points -  how many of you ACTUALLY have built your own i/cs - what materials did you use and what designs did you use. For those talking only from theory you should know that the only difference between untried theories and a fart is that one smells and the other does'nt.
 
Very importantly how many of the RoS have had a hearing test.
 
I have CDs that I bought in the 80's and I thought that they were digital crap but you know what as my system evolved I had to change my mind. I now have a  very revealing h/amp, my own design i/cs but using the same bog standard CDP - a Marantz 63 KI mk11 - I have had this CDP for over 14 years. As my h/amp improved along with the design of my i/cs more and more detail and sheer musical info appeared. I strive for something I once thought of as boring - neutrality. All this means is that the more neutral a component is, the more detail and sheer guts of the music shines through. But hey this cannot be since any component of the same value/voltage must sound the same - is'nt that right RoS crowd.
 
So, RoS crowd you must now prove conclusively that as all cables sound the same, so must all caps/resistors/Txs/o/put Txs etc of the same value/voltage. Or that materials will react/perform differently on the same planet - I am referring specifically to Planet Earth and no other - b/s, waffling, personal are prohibited - only clear substantiated scientific answers are acceptable

A highly emotive response where you reference farting and a demand for acceptable science in the same post. 

   As a fellow occupant of planet earth also wanting no BS or waffle and clear substantiated evidence, I am presently going with the evidence of blind testing that it is unlikely cables make a difference to sound quality as they cannot be reliably differentiated between.

 

[Steve Eddy]

 
Quote:

Just because a difference can't be measured doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
 

No. But neither does it mean it exists.
 
Quote:

It simply means the scientific method, which is severely limited in its own scope, does not have a proven method to measure the 'differences' cables produce in sound.

 
It means absolutely no such thing.
 
You're arguing from the false premise that cables actually do produce audible differences. That premise has yet to be established.
 
se
 

 

[nick_charles]

Quote:

I get sucked into a cable thread about every two years, sadly each time I review one of these threads I get a little depressed because  the followers of the Religion of Science and those of  religions and politics are so strikingly similar.
 
Start with personal insults, an archetyipal audiophile stance, a bit predictable , 4/10 must try harder ! Science is not a religion as such it may be referred to as a philosophical stance or an approach to the epistemological study of the world.
 
They are always strident and dictatorial. The obsession with tests is just that an obsession and as in religion and politics the acolytes are terrified of personal responsibility, they need to hide behind a dogma or belief system, projecting their mentality onto those they see as adversories. Hence they always refer to those who hear differences in cables as believers, when in reality they are describing themselves.Some are so dogmatic it is a rather sad joke. Let me state categorically that I find it immensly insulting to be described as a believer.
 
Would you prefer to be called delusional, gullible or suggestible.

 Who here has called you in particular a believer ? are you just assuming that is how you are referred to ? If so it is because you think others regard you as someone who "a priori" beleives that cables make an audible difference but believe so without any strong unbiased evidence to support the assertion, this is regardless of any discussion of electrical properties of cables. It is just a label anyway, you would probably call me a cable-hater, I do not hate cables, I am skeptical about their audible differences, having tested and DBTested a few so provide me with good evidence. On the other hand you seem to think it is acceptable to insult those who take a scientific stance by calling them religious, this looks like double-standards to me.
 
 
If the RoS crowd were actually being scientific they would present their argument from fundamentals, which they never do. To be truly scientific the RoS crowd should first describe thoroughly 2 very important points (1) how an electrically generated musical signal (EGMS) presents itself in space-time and (2) how that signal travels from point of entry to point of departure via the i/c - I have never ever seen these two basic and  hugely important points covered by any RoS follower.
 
This is out of the scope of the argument under scrutiny here. The argument here is why do "insert term here" not undertake blind tests to provide evidence for their assertions. We do not neeed to go back to basics on this one. If you want to debate the question you raise you will hve to start your own thread. 
 
 
Their argument is that - all cables sound the same - that means that irrespective of conductor material, dialectric material or design the EGMS will be conducted exactly the same - that is what they are saying. So, an EGMS will travel at exactly the same speed and in exactly the same way via bog standard industrial copper containing hundreds of thousands of crystals or in the case of OCC only one crystal - prove it. The same goes for silver/aluminium/s/plated copper/s/plated OFC/s/plated OFHC etc. etc. in each case prove it.
 
No, that is not so. The argument is that the differences between cables due to material differences are not in fact humanly audible. I've measured differences in cables, they are small but they exist. The question is simply are they audible.
 
 
And then we come to dialectrics - again whatever the dialectric material or structure - it will all sound the same. So a conductor that is wrapped in Teflon/Kapton/polyethelene etc will sound the same. Or, if the conductor is surrounded by air, or mainly air  and it will sound the same - prove it.
 
I have provided audio samples from cables with different materials and very different and even no shielding, to date nobody has been able to detect a difference.
 
So, on planet Earth which is where I live, materials will behave exactly the same in any application where the basics are identical ie. atmospheric pressure/humidity etc. In case there is any doubt I mean that copper/silver/aluminium/carbon etc will exhibit exactly the same charactersistics in identical physical envronments - yes? if not I require an explicit scientific basis for any and all retorts.
 
As above this is a straw man argument, differences exist , are they audible, simple question.
 
So, let's take the RoS crowds argument further - using any amplifier design, build identical amp circuits using exactly the same value/voltage  components. Build the first using the cheapest components and graduate upto increasingly better materials, including better hook-up wire - let's say 5 amps.
 
Now according to the RoS crowd they will all sound the same - this is pure Gold Plated  B/S but this is what the RoS crowd would have you believe. The cheapest rip-off copy made in China cap will sound the same as a VH Teflon/Russian Teflon cap - I say Gold Plated B/S _ I could include Mundorff Silver, Silver/Gold etc. etc.
 
Read "Do All Amplifiers Sound The Same?" by Masters and Clark, price and parts are not necessarily correlated with audible differences.
 
I use a US made cap in abundance - ERSE they are superb caps, very cheap and they are way,way better than ie. Solen but hey they can't sound better they must sound the same, if they are the rated at the same voltage/value  - so say the RoS crowd. Or are they saying that the same materials obey different fundamental scientific laws on the same planet?
 
According to the RoS crowd all resistors must sound the same if they have the same rating - more Gold Plated B/S. Try the naked Vishay S102s and compare to anything else available - all other resistors are coloured or introduce warmth/fuzziness, they are in a different galaxy - hey but this can't be - everything sounds the same - so goes the blind mantra of the RoS crowd.
 
I have spent over 4 years designing and redesigning i/cs. I have used different gauge/material/number of  conductors and dialectrics, I have used different designs and guess what they all sounded different but the biggest shock for me was when I replicated the exact same design/materials for chassis wiring as I use for i/cs and that was for me a wonderful shock. A friend emailed me a blurb from Nordost about the importance of using the same wire/design throughout your system - Nordost was right.
 
Tested with blind test of course, did you ever get two amps that measured exactly the same but in DBT sounded different ?
 
Finally let's hear from the RoS crowd on these points -  how many of you ACTUALLY have built your own i/cs - what materials did you use and what designs did you use. For those talking only from theory you should know that the only difference between untried theories and a fart is that one smells and the other does'nt.
 
Very importantly how many of the RoS have had a hearing test.
 
Ah, the insults again exactly on cue.
 
I have CDs that I bought in the 80's and I thought that they were digital crap but you know what as my system evolved I had to change my mind. I now have a  very revealing h/amp, my own design i/cs but using the same bog standard CDP - a Marantz 63 KI mk11 - I have had this CDP for over 14 years. As my h/amp improved along with the design of my i/cs more and more detail and sheer musical info appeared. I strive for something I once thought of as boring - neutrality. All this means is that the more neutral a component is, the more detail and sheer guts of the music shines through. But hey this cannot be since any component of the same value/voltage must sound the same - is'nt that right RoS crowd.
 
You do know that that particular line of Marantz players 63/67 has one of the worst measured jittter performances of any commercially available dedicated CD player, it is about 670ps p-p, probably (almost certainly) not audible as degradation as such, but it is effectively running at below 16 bits at higher frequencies, round about 14.9 bits I think. Rationally it is thus not neutral as it does introduce a lot (relative term) of distortion. Of course if you cannot hear this distortion perhaps your hearing is not so good or maybe the difference is just not audible ?
 
So, RoS crowd you must now prove conclusively that as all cables sound the same, so must all caps/resistors/Txs/o/put Txs etc of the same value/voltage. Or that materials will react/perform differently on the same planet - I am referring specifically to Planet Earth and no other - b/s, waffling, personal are prohibited - only clear substantiated scientific answers are acceptable
 
See above

Peace and love !