[photobob]

Sorry if this has been addressed before but...

I understand that many NOS tubes are built better, so they will last lnoger but why do they sound smoother, etc?
Sure, the fact that they are usually built better helps. Can someone explain?

Also, why can't a current tubemaker clone a classic like the TS round plate?
Surely the audiophile market would pay $40/tube instead of $12/tube, to make it worth their while and it would be a win-win situation.
We would have availability and reasonably sane prices and the tube mfgr's would get their price.

The materials are there. These designs can't be that difficult to clone in the 21st century. The patents have run out.
Someone enlighten me.

 

[NotoriousBIG_PJ]

You need the original tooling to clone them apparently. Groove tubes makes some pricey clone tubes just like you are asking for...

Biggie.

 

[replytoken]

FWIW, I am guessing that some of the specific raw materials used to manufacture tubes can no longer be obtained (i.e. by specific I mean a raw material from a very exact location, not unlike natural stone that is pulled from the ground), or produced (possibly due to health or safety regulations). Dye pigments used in the arts world have changed throughout the years, and the ones that we often miss were nasty substances to produce. Perhaps this is why you can clone the technique or use the same equipment and still not end up with the results that you desire. I know this is not a specific answer, but I hope it provides some general context to some of those elusive variables that impact our ability to manufacture and create.

 

[dsavitsk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by replytoken FWIW, I am guessing that some of the specific raw materials used to manufacture tubes can no longer be obtained (i.e. by specific I mean a raw material from a very exact location, not unlike natural stone that is pulled from the ground), or produced (possibly due to health or safety regulations). Dye pigments used in the arts world have changed throughout the years, and the ones that we often miss were nasty substances to produce. Perhaps this is why you can clone the technique or use the same equipment and still not end up with the results that you desire. I know this is not a specific answer, but I hope it provides some general context to some of those elusive variables that impact our ability to manufacture and create.

I think the environental impact is one reason, but I also think that the number of tubes purchased by audio folks is so small compared to what would need to be purchased that it is not cost effective.

 

[Jahn]

btw i second groove tubes. in the guitar forums folks really dig those groove tubes as replacements in their old fender tube amps - groove tubes might not have thought to pursue the audiophile market, but the resulting "retro" tubes definitely might have a useful application in your headphone amp, not just a guitar amp!

 

[Len]

Tube manufacturing is an art of sorts. Tubes are relatively complicated, and the assembly work is manual. Modern tube manufactuers simply lack skills equivalent to the old guard. It's important to realize tubes being built today target a tiny niche market. But in the mid 20th century, they were essential, critical items used in everything from consumer electronics to military gear. In this context, it's little wonder modern tube manufacturers lack the experience, the technical know-how, or the motivation to produce superior tubes.

This isn't to say all modern tube offerings are subpar. But those that are competitve (or better) are often just as expensive, if not more expensive then their NOS counterparts. Take KR Audio, Emission Labs, and the now defunct AVVT for example. Even Westrex, with all the orignal detailed schematics of Western Electric, aren't able to make a 300B clone that people regard as an exact sonic equivalent of the vintage runs .... and these new productions retail for $1000 a pair

As replytoken mentioned, even supposing modern manufacturers could perfect the technique, some of the materials aren't there, can't be accurately duplicated without heavy capital investement, or are illegal to use these days due to modern saftey standards.

 

[photobob]

I am under the impression that tube audio is big in Asia, for instance. I think the number of tube lovers worldwide may be growing. How big does the market have to be worldwide to warrant the tooling and setup. They could still charge more for these Special Edition versions
just not too much more

 

[BRBJackson]

True enough, bob, the market is growing. That said, though, there's a huge difference between 'growing' and 'financially viable' when it comes to the market for something extremely specialized, with high startup/tooling costs. And, it's a vertical market, in that you really can't cross-pollinate your production to another (larger) market. You're stuck with us audio geeks...

 

[photobob]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Len Tube manufacturing is an art of sorts. Tubes are relatively complicated, and the assembly work is manual. Modern tube manufactuers simply lack skills equivalent to the old guard. It's important to realize tubes being built today target a tiny niche market. But in the mid 20th century, they were essential, critical items used in everything from consumer electronics to military gear. In this context, it's little wonder modern tube manufacturers lack the experience, the technical know-how, or the motivation to produce superior tubes. This isn't to say all modern tube offerings are subpar. But those that are competitve (or better) are often just as expensive, if not more expensive then their NOS counterparts. Take KR Audio, Emission Labs, and the now defunct AVVT for example. Even Westrex, with all the orignal detailed schematics of Western Electric, aren't able to make a 300B clone that people regard as an exact sonic equivalent of the vintage runs .... and these new productions retail for $1000 a pair As replytoken mentioned, even supposing modern manufacturers could perfect the technique, some of the materials aren't there, can't be accurately duplicated without heavy capital investement, or are illegal to use these days due to modern saftey standards.

I checked out the KR audio and Emission Labs websites. They do not seem to offer 6SN7 tubes.
Any suggestions here Len?
Thanks
Bob

 

[Len]

Quote:

Originally Posted by photobob I checked out the KR audio and Emission Labs websites. They do not seem to offer 6SN7 tubes. Any suggestions here Len? Thanks Bob

Oh, Sorry. I didn't mean to infer KR and EML offered 6SN7s. I cited them to demonstrate that new production tubes, when done right, might not be cheaper then their NOS counterparts. In fact, KR recently raised their prices to stay viable (a KR 300Bs are something like $600/pr now) and AVVT went under (partially due to poor business management, but their $400/pr tubes weren't covering costs).

The only respectable modern 6SN7 is the EH, IMO. Some Japanese stuff isn't half bad, but nothing to write home about. I definitely think there is room for major improvement, but I'm not holding my breath for a TS RP alternative.

 

[photobob]

Maybe one of these companies could be persuaded to start offering 6SN7's once Singlepowers, etc start to really proliferate?

I haven't even tried my EH's that Mikhail sent with my amp yet, as I have not heard anyone rave much about 'em. I am anticipating brittleness in the treble, I guess.

I am liking the TS/Hytron Combo too much

 

[MoodyDragon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by photobob Maybe one of these companies could be persuaded to start offering 6SN7's once Singlepowers, etc start to really proliferate?

Much though I admire Singlepower, we are talking of the likes of Sony and Toshiba mass market acceptance before it is anywhere viable financially!

 

[photobob]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MoodyDragon Much though I admire Singlepower, we are talking of the likes of Sony and Toshiba mass market acceptance before it is anywhere viable financially!

I am not sure if that statement applies to a a small outfit (5 people) like emission labs

http://www.emissionlabs.com/html/tour/tour1.htm

They hand build tubes and charge more accordingly.

I wonder what their minimum run would be

 

[Len]

They'd need entirely new tooling and a vast amounts of R&D in order to crank out a new line of signal tubes. If they commit to making any, they've committed to making them for the long haul.

 

[photobob]

I actually just emailed Jac and he replied that their tooling would not allow them to produce 6SN7's. They were using circa 1935 technology.